Manual of Romance
Originally composed by jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Posted to alt.romace on 4 May 92 04:12:58 GMT
Included Herein
General Tips
Dating Skills
Love is...
Being Attractive
General Tips
From: tkorho@cs.joensuu.fi (Tommi Korhonen)
I wont say much.
I have been in the pos. But it made me no wiser!
I agree to most of the previous points. BUT!
I'd say: do not say: "I love you!" (Harsh, am I not?)
Do anything else, anything, ask her to marry you, but do not go for:
"ILY". Unless the situation is obvious.
I mean: has anyone noticed how the worst way to have love is to want it? To
me it has always been disaster to say "ILY". Nothing scares girls more, even
if they like you. I know, it is the best thing to say after some special
point, but if you are not 100% certain that you have reached the point, I'd
say keep low, but go for it.
I'd try asking her for some commitment or something, just to agree that you
are 'officially dateing'. I'd perhaps ask her to spend some vacations with
me or even to live with me. (I mean in the situation as I undestood it)
Currently I have asked my 'girlfriend' to join me in a bicyckle trip, say
like two weeks, when it gets warmer. If she'll go for it then I am quite
sure she is SERIOUSLY interested, am I not right?
THEN it is time to ask if 'we love each other'.
Well, I said perhaps too much. I promised not to! Anyone who knows me
wouldn't trust me :), but these are only ideas. Not
'to-be-followed-instructions'.
From: jgacker@ISIS.GSFC.NASA.GOV (James G. Acker)
I can't reference other posts because I post through e-mail.
I'm referring to the sex and relationships postings IÕve seen
recently. Variations on "should sex be part of the relationship", "do
honeymoons still mean anything", "just because you want to give them
pleasure doesn't mean you should" etc.
I sort of wish I could do this anonymously, but that partly
indicates the societal stigma of virginity. Which is what I am. I'm
32, a swimmer with a decent build, above-average looks (being as honest
as possible), and very heterosexual. I have been pursuing romantic
relationships with the intention of marriage, so far unsuccessfully, but
on-going. I have been in "intimate" situations before, which could have
led to sex but did not.
Primary reason: I want sex with someone I'm very in love with,
and I want to have complete sexual freedom with that person. Sex manuals
and books will always say that sex is best with one you love, so why not
wait for the freedom that comes with marriage? Sex can happen without
intimacy -- I've never wanted that.
So for me, the honeymoon ideal still exists. I'm looking forward
to wild abandon with the one I love. I'll write romantic poetry on their
nude body to say how much I love them, and then proceed to demonstrate.
Sex is 90% in the mind, anyhow. Just "having sex" cheapens the
wonderful romantic intimacy of the act. I want to "make love" in all
its various forms!
VIRGINS OF THE WORLD, UNITE! (after the wedding)
In case you're wondering, it has not been easy to pass up
proffered sexual opportunities. But I'm still good friends
with all of them. Does that tell everyone something?
And to the "Nice Guys": Start believing in yourself. And be
realistic. The vast majority of relationships involve people of similar
physical attractiveness to each other. This trend has been proven in
numerous pyschological studies. All of us (myself included) notice
the 1% or less of the opposite sex who are extraordinarily attractive.
Only a few souls will be paired with that exclusive 1% (and because they
are so noticeable, they are in demand.) Look around, project confidence,
have a sense of humor, LISTEN to them, and you'll find someone in that other
99% who appreciates who you are. Be smart! And it will work. It has for me,
and just because I'm not married and haven't partaken in sexual intercourse,
it sure doesn't mean I haven't had a good time with the variety of women
I have dated, caressed, stroked, and loved.
ROMANCE should be exciting. Make it so!
From: 6500ursa@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Disco Junkie)
I've had many friends who fit the so called "asshole"
mode, but it seems to me that what sets them apart from the
"NiceGuy" is that they know how to play the "game", and that
they're not necessarily bad people.
I was fortunate enough to have these "assholes" (or bad boys,
whatever you call them) teach me some tips, or was able to
watch them in action.
So, in this spirit, I'd like to offer some tips on the game
that I've learned from these "assholes".
FEEL FREE TO CONTRIBUTE!
[ED: We've certainly done that..! :-) ]
WARNING: Use this at your own risk. Although I've had my
share of successes with women, I am far from being a romeo, nor
an authority on love. I'm only a former (hopefully) niceguy
sharing some tips that's worked for me.
1)Appearance is CRUCIAL. You may laugh at me saying this as
it seems so obvious, but yet, so many of the people that complain
about being nice guys that I know, well, their appearance leaves
much more to be desired. I used to be very skinny and usually
ignored by women, and so I started to lift weights, and this
has DEFINITELY helped me in my social life. And yet, many of
these nice guys (BUT NOT ALL) refuse to do ANYTHING about their
appearance. Not even dress nice, or get a decent haircut. Or
end irritating mannerisms.
2)Mindset is crucial.
-Stop thinking of women as "girls", and look at them as PEOPLE.
Too often, my common problem was one of putting "girls" on
pedestals, which means being nice to them in every possible way.
Or else trying to turn every encounter into a "lay" or a steady
relationship. See them as regular human beings with strengths and
frailities.
-Don't be so desperate!!! Nothing drives people away more
than desperation! When you just need to "get laid" so bad that
it's written all over your face, or when you just must have a
steady girlfriend, these are times when you'll chase away women
because you need it so bad. Don't compare yourself to other
people's standards! So what if you don't have sex every
weekend, or are still a virgin? So what if you're single
and unattached, while your friends all have SO's? If that's
the way that the world's gonna be, then let it be so, cause
I'm not gonna let such matters interfere with my happiness!
-Protect your dignity!!! I personally managed to snap out of
one of my niceguy cycles when I was blatantly snubbed by some
women in favor of my friends. My friends were white, the women
were white, and I am an Asian-American. My friends and I
were at a bar when these women ran up to our group and
tried to start a conversation with everyone except me.
Of course, being the nice guy that I was, I tried to be nice
to them, and not "assholish", but the desperation was so
written all over my face, and I kept getting snubbed. That
night, I was so pissed that when I drove home, I swore to myself
that it wasn't worth it anymore to have to subject myself to such
humiliation just to find a woman, and if I was to be single, then
so be it, and I might as well enjoy being single and unattached.
It just wasn't worth it anymore to me. So, I stopped caring,
and then the next day, lo and behold, I managed to hook up with
a very interesting woman. So all you nice guys, GET MAD at
all the indignities that you've received in order to get love,
and swear that NOTHING is worth destroying your self-esteem for!
Maybe that'll restore your dignity that'll keep you from being a
doormat for manipulative women/men. (ugh. I can tell you some
horror stories.)
3) Location is crucial. It is damn near impossible to meet
women through AD&D or various other role playing games with
a significant male membership. :-) Chuck those games away and
do some activities with a better male/female ratio.
From: 6500ursa@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Disco Junkie)
A discussion on how to avoid being a nice guy follows.
In article <1991Oct19.18122.24294@cs.ucla.edu> gds@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
(I Disco Junkie-hey stop laughing- wrote the following...)
>>-Protect your dignity!!! I personally managed to snap out of
>> one of my niceguy cycles when I was blatantly snubbed by some
>> women in favor of my friends. My friends were white, the women
>> were white, and I am an Asian-American. My friends and I
*(Read the whole article in Soc.singles to avoid this being
taken out of context.--Disco Junkie)
>> were at a bar when these women ran up to our group and
>> tried to start a conversation with everyone except me.
(Greg Skinner)
>This is unfortunate. I have had this sort of thing happen to me
>There isn't much you can do about this, either. If you restrict
>yourself to Asians only, you are cutting yourself off from romantic
>opportunities (not to mention, from the company of your friends).
>However, if (in general) you attempt inter relationships,
>you run the risk of meeting up with people who snub you (or worse)
>because you're not a member of their culture.
>Have you talked to your friends about this? How do they feel about
>it?
Here's my views on ethnic dating/prejudice. The following is my
next rule for you NiceGuys out there, especially you NiceGuys of
Color (Coming from an ex-niceguy himself...)
***4)Focus on what you CAN do, not what you CAN'T do.****
I'll probably get a lot of flames for what I am to say. We all are
in one way victims of society or other people. In one way
or another, WE ALL are judged/handicapped because of our:
1)race
2)religion
3)clique (jocks, geeks, etc)
4)appearance (too much acne, etc., disabled)
5)class (very important, much neglected)
6)education
7)"niceness" (actually, I argue that this is a poor
term to use, see my posting in alt.romance under
'shy guys' for an explanation.)
8)etc. etc.
Now, some things can be changed, whether or not that is
up to you. Other things, like race, can't.(even
the megabucks of Michael Jackson can't do that.)
Even ethnic culture (as opposed to race) can be used against you.
My roommate, who is Portuguese, says that people are
prejudiced against him all the time for his accent, even
though he looks white on the surface.
Now I'm not justifying racism, or saying that we should
meekly live with it. However, while we can fight against
racism (or class-ism, or able-ism, or geek-ism, or nice-ism),
in the short run, all of us (the human race) are gonna have
to learn to COPE with it, until a solution can be found.
We can complain and moan and groan about all the injustices
given to us, but if we ONLY complain about our handicaps,
and NEGLECT our strong points, we end up becoming very
pessimistic, and about as fun to be around with as a guy
with a month's worth of body odor. In short, we
end up with a VICTIM'S MENTALITY (a common NiceGuy mistake.)
Instead, we should seize life firmly by the throat and try
to establish whatever control we can over our lives. If it
means fighting racism, then do it, but we can't let such
stuff affect our happiness! Instead of complaining and
focusing on what we CAN'T do, let's focus on what we CAN
do!
I speak from experience (although what I experience and
what you experience may be very different.)
In the past, I had (and still have a little) an Asian
chip on my shoulder. Whenever I got snubbed by non-Asian
women, I blamed it on racism (whether I was correct in
calling it racism, that is another question.)
Whenever I was snubbed by an Asian woman, I blamed it on the
Asian-women-going-for-White-men syndrome.
So, all this gave me was an inferiority complex, and much
ANGER. This chipped away at my self-esteem. Now tell
me, with such anger, do you think I was a very attractive
person to be with, regardless of my appearance? People like
to be around those who are at peace with themselves.
Now, I try not to let this bother me too much. If these
women don't want to meet me because of my color, then I
don't really want to meet them. So, I've saved myself a lot
of heartache and trouble by not going after people who consider
race important. I cannot, nor should not force people to
love/like me on my criteria, for that is their perogative. Instead, I
focus on what I can do, and I give everyone the benefit of
the doubt, when it comes to race. Instead of saying, "But
I'm Asian, and people don't think Asian men are sexy...",
I now say, "Yeah, but I'm intelligent, have a sexy smile :-D
a cheerful disposition and am very fun to be around with.
If they don't want to be around me, well, it's their loss."
So I run the risk of being snubbed because of my color (by
fellow Asians even...), but the benefits are much better (like
meeting wonderful people),so in the long run, the benefits
outweigh the risks.
After I adopted such an attitude (which was this summer, by
the way), women's reactions to me began to change. I began
to date women of all races, and tried not to condition myself
for failure by focusing on what could go wrong, but rather,
what could go right. And such thinking helped me to move
away from my cynical, pessimistic, negative attitude (which
you see a LOT of on the .net)
MORE IMPORTANTLY, apply these principles to your own
life. How many of you out there (c'mon, I see you...)
let yourself be handicapped by focusing only excuses>
Phew. I'm quite long winded, ain't I? Let me hear your
opinions on this. Do you think I'm a sell-out? I'm very
proud of my heritage, but there just comes a time when
you've got to get on with life, and avoid letting racism
cloud your optimism...
Sender: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
In article <2171@ucsbcsl.ucsb.edu> 6500ursa@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Disco Junkie) writes:
*Here's my views on ethnic dating/prejudice. The following is my
*next rule for you NiceGuys out there, especially you NiceGuys of
*Color (Coming from an ex-niceguy himself...)
****4)Focus on what you CAN do, not what you CAN'T do.****
[stuff deleted]
You don't even have to look or sound different, if your BEHAVIOUR
is 'different'...
*We can complain and moan and groan about all the injustices
*given to us, but if we ONLY complain about our handicaps,
*and NEGLECT our strong points, we end up becoming very
*pessimistic, and about as fun to be around with as a guy
*with a month's worth of body odor. In short, we
*end up with a VICTIM'S MENTALITY (a common NiceGuy mistake.)
Nobody likes a 'stick in the mud'... :-)
[Past experience deleted]
*People like
*to be around those who are at peace with themselves.
So true! :-)
[Example of racism deleted:]
*I cannot, nor should not force people to
*love/like me on my criteria, for that is their perogative.
There will always be SOMEbody that doesn't like you, for SOME
reason. Can you really expect everybody to like you? I gave
that idea up a while ago, and I've never regretted it. :-)
[On refusing to react negatively:]
*So I run the risk of being snubbed because of my color (by
*fellow Asians even...), but the benefits are much better (like
*meeting wonderful people),so in the long run, the benefits
*outweigh the risks.
There are lots of things in life that are hard to do, but whose
benefits greatly outweigh the risk.... Love, Trust, Compassion,...
I'm sure you can think of others.
*After I adopted such an attitude (which was this summer, by
*the way), women's reactions to me began to change. I began
*to date women of all races, and tried not to condition myself
*for failure by focusing on what could go wrong, but rather,
*what could go right. And such thinking helped me to move
*away from my cynical, pessimistic, negative attitude (which
*you see a LOT of on the .net)
Waitasec..! You didn't tell us about all the wonderful people
you've met because of this 'change'... :-)
*MORE IMPORTANTLY, apply these principles to your own
*life. How many of you out there (c'mon, I see you...)
*let yourself be handicapped by focusing only excuses>
*Phew. I'm quite long winded, ain't I?
It's a nice, broad topic.... :-)
*Do you think I'm a sell-out?
Are you kidding? :-) Do you know how much strength and
integrity it takes to do something like that? It's easy to cop
out and succumb to bitterness..!
*I'm proud of my heritage, but there just comes a time when
*you've got to get on with life, and avoid letting racism
*cloud your optimism...
Who said you had to give up your heritage in order to avoid
letting 'racism cloud your optimism'? As an adult, you can
choose to reject any part of your ethnicity you disagree with.
If you don't want to take flak for it, then you'd better be
prepared to argue in favor of your choices....
From: chris@zeus.calpoly.edu (The Squire, Phish)
[The Disco Man's rules deleted for brevity.]
Word.
I'll agree 97%. The only thing I disagree with is your suggestion to
chuck the AD&D (as an example) as it's not the way to meet and SO. True,
but remember what you said about protecting your dignity? Don't chuck
the game. Just remember that you're probably not going to meet anyone
in the SO department at the weekly hack-and-slash AD&D ganes. They key
here would be BALANCE. Keep up those kinds of activities, that's what
defines CHARACTER. But also try activities that ARE conducive to meeting
an SO. Does this make sense?
From: taina@cs.Helsinki.FI (Juha Taina)
> Only alternative for nice guys is to:
> LEARN TO STAND UP FOR YOURSELVES,
> NEVER TAKE ANY CRAP,
> DON'T SETTLE FOR LESS THAN WHAT YOU DESERVE,
> TREAT WOMEN AS PEOPLE, NOT DIRT, NOT GODDESSES.
I'd say:
TREAT WOMEN AS FRIENDS, NOT AS ROMANTIC TOYS
From: reiser@pmafire.inel.gov (Steve Reiser)
Nice Guy - Sensitive to the point of self doubt and often tries to hard
to please out of a sense that he needs to agree with her and not make
waves.
Jerk - An insensitive guy who know what he wants, but is so ego oriented
that he'l take what he wants no matter who get hurt
Real Guy - A guy who know exactly what he wants and all relationships
are negotiations based on honest communications building trust and other
values while being creative and interesting because he knows what he
wants out of his own life, but wants to build trust and happiness with
others so that he listens well, but also has his own opinions and has no
qualms about being different.
Jerks get a lot of women because they are aggressive and many women are
flattered by the attention, but it leads to a lot of emotional pain for
them. Nice guys make good friends to woman, but are sensitive and
passive to the point of being just plain boring and TOO easy to trust.
Real guys however know just how agressive to be to arouse passion while
at the same time maintaining a high level of openness and trust. Real
guys are also patient enough that a woman will feel that she is both
stimulating to the guy (and he to her) without feeling threatened. Real
guys are slower than jerks, but more successful than nice guys.
I know, because I learned to be a real guy back in hich school and never
had a problem getting dates or women romantically interest. I've had
about 20 or 30 women who've wanter to marry me and I did get married.
Be REAL.
From: reiser@pmafire.inel.gov (Steve Reiser)
Two keys to romance:
1) Listening
2) Touching
How you listen and the level of touching in ways that show care, concern,
etc. add more emotional depth to a relationship than anything.
Too many of us (especially men) have to learn to really listen well
and to interact with concern for the other's interests without cluttering
our minds with what we are going to say next.
A good book on communication skills and how they differ between men and
women is:
"You Just Don't Understand"
The book is excellent and really makes one aware of basic differences
most of us have "felt" and complained about, but haven't consciously
analyzed to better understand the differences in the basic frame of
reference from which men and women communicate.
If men or women don't make sense to each other in how they react to each
others' conversation, then this book will clarify much of what mystifies
us about each other. I highly recommend this book!
From: sb5n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sebastian V. Billard)
hcliff@wybbs.mi.org (Cliff Helsel) writes:
> This topic has caused a lot of grief for me over the past 1 1/2 years
> that I have been going out with my SO. I haven't had much experience
> when it comes to relationships lets just say I can count it on one
> hand. My girlfriend however has had many relationships. She lost her
> virginity a week after she turned 15 and has been sexually active ever
> since (7 lovers including me). She will turn nineteen in a couple of
> weeks.
>
> I love her very much but I have a hard time trusting her. She admits to
> being a rebel when she was younger and regrets sleeping around so much,
> she wants to marry me. I would marry her but it just grinds at me to
> know about so many past loves. I wonder if she is eventually going to
> drift back into the same lifestyle she lived before we met. These past
> affairs were not very serious except for her first which lasted over a
> year (but then she was only sixteen).
>
> Can anyone speak from experience here? How do others feel about past
> lovers (your SO's)? Do you think a successful relationship can be
> built or last where one persons experience greatly outweighs the other?
Well, let me start with this.. I've found that usually, it is the
person with less experience that turns away.., feeling that maybe they
have missed something.. If she says she regrets being so active at
that age, she probably means it...
Now of course.. my relationship with someone like her blew up.. but
that had nothing to do with her past... it had to do with the fact
that it became hard not to be in the same room and no try to kill each
other...
But thats a long story..
Of course, marriage is a big step.. Especially at 19 :)
well good luck, but worry how yu will be, knowing she has more
experience that you.. and also..
TALK TO HER.... she might be able to answer you better than we could..
From: umisef@mcshh.hanse.de (Bernd Meyer)
cosc14sz@elroy.uh.edu (91F6400) writes:
>Hello.
> I would like to share something with those who might take
>some interest or comfort in this writing.
> A little over a month ago, I met a girl while working in
>the computer lab. I didn't know we were in the same class until
>that time. She was working on her program with a friend of mine.
>I helped both of them out every now and thenm as I was slightly
>more experienced with programming than they were. At any rate,
>she and I began to talk more and more, and eventually did little
>more work on the program. Soon I had to go to class, and to my
>surprise, she wanted to accompany me to it. This had never
>happened to me before, but I was pleased nonetheless. In the past
>I've known several girls, but nothing has ever lasted. I am quite
>shy but am opening up. Coming to school from another state and
>to a larger city (Houston) has helped. Anyway, to return to the
>story, I met her again after my class was over, and we had
>something to eat. I was surprised she shares my major exactly,
>because she doesn't fit the "computer science" type, in my
>opinion. She's very attractive, articulate, intelligent,
>talkative, and simply friendly. For the next few days we spent
Hey waddoyou mean, this doesn't fit computer-science, And what am I :-?
>nearly all the time possible with each other (she lives far
>from the campus, whereas I live on it). However, soon after we
>met, she had to go to the hospital for an operation. I
>visited her once while she was there, the most I could do.
Hmm, from personal experience I can say that visits in hospital are
very much appreciated and are very important. Maybe you should have
been there more often (why was it the most you could do - because
of shyness or because of lack of time/possibility). But that's the
past...
>To reduce detail, suffice it to say that 2 weeks later, she
>visited me at school, and we really enjoyed the time together.
>By this time I had fallen completely in love with her, for lack
>of a better description of what had happened. I gradually
>learned that her previous life was enormously complex, farmore
Again personal experience cuts in. This is something you always think.
Funnily enough, she'll probably think the same about you. It's so
easy: From your viewpoint, your past is easy, logical and wellknown
whilst hers is new, fascinating, complicated and non-understandable.
From her point of view it's just the other way round.
For me it's not much to have had my voice broadcasted on a radio-station,
to shake hands with some ministers and to sleep in one of the best German
hotels - I did that, so it's not much of a deal. I was very impressed when
my SO told me that she had been living here and there - and there - and
there, and there, and, by the way, there (she has moved 7 times by now!).
For her, that's not much, but seeing some videotape of a speech I once held
impressed her a lot.
>than mine. I also learned that she has many friends, both
>male and female, but had not been involved with a boyfriend in
>over a year, as she has suffered too much until that point.
>Obviously, I wanted to make her more-or-less mine, but she
>didn't want that. She thought it best that we remain friends.
>I see her nearly every day now on campus, and we've gone out
>several times. She's not involved deeply with anyone, but
>I wish so much that she would with me. I've made up my mind
>to remain just friends with her and try to suppress romantic
>feelings, but of course it is difficult. Should I persue
>it or just let the status quo be? I'm sure some of you have
>encountered similar situations. And comments would be
>appreciated, although by no means will I take anything as
>an order; I'll just consider it. Thanks, have fun.
Oh well, what shall you do? A friend of mine once told me how to win the
heart of girl. She wrote:
"You have to convince her that life is more fun with a boyfriend than
without. As a second step, you have to convince her that you are this
boyfriend".
She meant it as a joke, and I knew that. But there is truh in it - you wrote
she suffered too much from having boyfriends. I think we both agree (though
for different reasons) that she should change her mind. But she must be con-
vinced. You can only do that by
1.) Being her friend, without pressing her, and
2.) Exploring this hurt she carries, making her tell you, understand, care
and be worth the trust. But most of all, UNDERSTAND! And be honest.
If you think she blames someone and shouldn't, tell her. If you think,
she is right, tell her also. Tell her your opinions bout what she told
your.
Of course, you have to do all this very careful, without pressing anything,
and with lots of respect and sensitivity. If I'm not wrong, you'll go through
long discussion, will eventually start to cheer each other up when down,
and, with some luck, end up in a relationship (happened to me, though I really
did not intend!).
From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
[About an old girlfriend:]
Unfortunately, (or not... only God knows all...) our
relationship only lasted a period of months, not years. She
swept me off my feet when I was still young and naive, and when I
finally snapped out of the infatuation, I asked her for some
distance so that I could think. This was during the summer.
A month later, I returned to school and tried to find her,
feeling that I now knew what I felt about her and why, and
wanting to tell her that I cared about her. I took about a
week, but I eventually found her...in bed with another guy.
So I left. A few weeks later, I went to visit her, to at least
talk to her and set things straight between us. She let me into
her dorm room, and immediately wandered off to talk to some
friends. After waiting twenty minutes, I left.
Supposedly, I hurt her by 'breaking up' with her. Even though
she was older that I was, I can't say she acted in a mature
manner when I tried to visit her. :-) I think things could
have been a lot different, but they weren't, so they aren't.
She probably blames me for everything, of course. :-) What do
you say to something like that?
'Oh well,...'
[ED: Point is, sometimes people need time to think.]
From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
In article <1991Oct24.052029.22714@csusac.csus.edu> usenet@csusac.csus.edu (News account (alt)) writes:
>From: beckerd@athena.ecs.csus.edu (David Becker)
[story of meeting girl deleted]
>She is also in a psychology class of mine, and she has asked me several
>questions about that class as well, so I'm pretty sure she's not just
>leeching computer help from me. I'd like to make a move soon, but being
>a 'Nice Guy[tm]', I don't know what to do.
-Make sure you get to class early and see if she sits next to you
-Hide, wait for her to sit down, then ask if you can sit next to her
-Strike up a conversation with her just as class ends and follow her
around until you have to go
-If you have another class right afterwards, ask her if she'd
like to walk to your next class with you
-Ask her anything about herself that isn't related to class; if
you ask anything that shows you're observant, (eg. Where did you
get that scar on your forehead?) she'll know you're paying
special attention to her
-Do simple things with her (eg. get a snack at break, walk
around, sit, eat lunch, ride the bus...)
-Give her a chance to spend some time with you (ie. make
yourself available so that she can ask you to spend time with
her.
>She is quite pretty, and
>smart (both things I look for in a woman)... In fact, the idea of
>making a move on her has scared me. So much so, that it made me sick
>and I missed classes... So in short, what should I do? I HATE it when
>this happens..... (And no, I'm not ugly, and I am quite smart. I just
>have bad luck with women.)
You just need a little experience, that's all. And you need to
loosen up. Fear is excitement looked at from a bad angle. This
is supposed to be FUN! :-) This girl seems to think you're
interesting! NEAT! Aren't you curious about her??? :-)
From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
>Right now, I am "dating" (one date, only dinner, very platonic) a girl that
>I met last year, and have known in the past when we were little kids...
Nothing wrong with a nice, casual dinner... :-)
>I have been very lonely, and have been looking for
>"THAT" person, and not sure really what I am looking for.
Give yourself time to think. You aren't looking for a particular
person, but a particular TYPE of person. Figure out what kind of
person you're looking for, and you'll be able to tell when you
get to know somebody like that.
>I like her a lot,
>and as my past rears it's ugly head, I am putting her into my fantasy.
>I try not to let it affect me, but let her shine through, here is where it gets
>tricky. I have such strong feelings for her, I can't sleep, I cry often..
>Worst of all, I am not sure if they are for her, or my fantasy, I honestly
>can't say... If they are for her, I want to make sure I don't put more than
>my foot in my mouth.
Remember that you're currently going through infatuation. It
lasts anywhere from three weeks to three months. When it finally
dies down, you'll be able to think normally again. :-) Until
then, it would probably be best to keep things low-key. Time is
on your side.
>I feel like she is the first shot I have had in a long
>time, and don't want to ruin it acting like a jerk..
If you're honest with her, let her know the confusion you're in,
the fact that you don't want to hurt her by screwing up, that you
really do like her (THIS IS IMPORTANT), then you should be find.
It's only when you start trying to be somebody you aren't, or try
to hide things from the other person that you start getting into
trouble.
COMMUNICATE!
Don't worry about which words you use. It's the feeling that
counts. She'll appreciate your sensitivity, honesty, and
sincerity, and I wouldn't be surprised if she appreciated the
effort it's going to take you to open up to her. :-)
You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
>She is very shy, has been hurt in the past, but is caring and sensitive, but
>puts up a defensive shield created by jokes, never being serious, and I don't
>know if I should force being serious, so she can get to know me, and I get to
>know her.
You shouldn't have to force anything on her. If you feel
serious, be serious. That doesn't mean she has to be....
>I just wanna know, if this could be love, how do I not F**K it up, by these
>thoughts , feelings. Heck, even I am confused now more than when I started.
>There is more, but I can't figure out how to put it down. Any suggestions,
>comments, am I just wasting my time??
Like I said, if you're sincere and straightforward, things will
work out for the best. Just remember to talk about YOURSELF, not
her. Tell her how YOU feel, don't tell her what she should do or
think.
Good luck. :-)
From: chris@zeus.calpoly.edu (The Squire, Phish)
Cliff, you may find this sage wisdom, or trash, but it works for me,
and I've had more good come of it than bad (nothing's perfect).
Rule of life #42: Everyone gets trust as the default until they
do something to destroy that trust.
Simply put, if she's not done anything to you to betray trust, give
it. Her past notwithstanding, each new person is a new chance to be
trusted. Expect the same from her, and tell her so.
From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
>Everyoe on the news group,
> Thanks for all your advice on how to ask, that
>girl i am really nuts for, out. Couldn't do so...it was weird, the minute, i
>decided to ask, a guy from nowhere kissed her on her lips. I was stunned as she
>kissed back. Well i haven't told her how i feel about her but we are good
>friends and still study together. Thanks again!!
> - Nad
Whew! :-) I hope you thanked whatever force is watching out for
your benefit...
It's nice that you decided to remain friends with her. You'll
get a chance to know her better, that way. And you can still go
out and do something fun, sometime. If the subject ever comes
up, however, I recommend being blunt about how you feel.
Of course, you probably have a different style than I do. :-)
-Nick
From: The Lizard King
>>Hello all! I've got a real problem on my hands--ANY help will be
appreciated
>>The story thus far (edited for brevity):
>>
>>So, this is my dilemma: Do I just give up, realizing that I have done about
>>all I can do (we did go out once to dinner, but I didn't get any idea of what
>>she thought or felt about it) and that anything else is just a waste of time
>>and pride. **OR** Do I resolve that anything worth having takes some work,
>>and maybe she wants to do something, but either doesn't know what to do, or
>>(quite reasonably) doesn't have the time, and tell her how I feel so that
>>maybe she can tell me how she does or does not feel?
>>
>>Please help, any advice woudl be most helpful.
>>Thanks.....
>>Life, liberty and the happiness(?) of pursuit.
>>Gordon.
>
>I'm sure you will get a lot of different responses, but
>I am a firm believer in honesty and openness. My
>suggestion would be to talk to her. Ask her out again,
>and if she says no, then move on....If she will go out,
>take the opportunity to tell her how you feel and that
>you would like to know what she thinks.... Certainly
>don't spill _all_ your feelings right away, but the important
>ones, like your firm interest in her. The risk of
>rejection is always there, in all relationships....
>Unfortunately "there are no guarantees".... But most
>relationships that one feels strongly about are worth
>the risk involved.... Good Luck to you , Gordon!! :-)
>Always remember there _is_ someone out there for you.
>
>--Lis
>
>p.s. Heaven is a *hug* and a *smile*
^
^
Hmph^, She knows you're interested, right? Let it go no further than calling
her every so often and talking small talk. Make her laugh. At the end of the
next date end it with a hug or a small kiss. Nothing more. This let's her
know that you are willing to wait for her love. They love patience. Before
you know it you will be going out with her. Don't give up!!! No matter what.
I am firm believer that _ANY_ woman is wooable.
Sincerely,
The Lizard King
From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholar Jodar)
>Alright guys...Here's the situation. I am not desperate, just looking for
>a variety of answers to work with on this one. Say you take a girl out
>and you get back to her apartment and it's time to say goodnight. What
>should you do to get the kiss started and also, under what circumstances
>would you throw a girl a nice kiss. Just looking for some ways I haven't
>used and/or considered. Thanks...
>
>Sal...
Well, there are many ways to do it, most dependent on your style.
You could avoid kissing altogether: a small momento to remember
the occasion with, a nice bow with a flourish, a good handshake,
a wave goodbye, a gentle caress of her cheek. You could make it
a neutral kiss: throw her a kiss, kiss her hand, kiss her cheek,
kiss your finger and touch it to her lips. And of course,
there's the KISS kiss... :-)
Tell her (if you haven't already) how much you enjoyed the
evening, and ask if she'd like to go out again. DO NOT tell her
you're going to call her just to have something to say. Many men
do this and it drives women nuts because the men never do call.
If you can, tentatively schedule your next date. If you can't do
that, at least let her know you'd like to go out again.
One good way to end things is by giving her a big hug. I don't
know of too many people that refuse a nice hug. If you hugging
isn't up to par, practice a bit first. You'll find lots of
people willing to help you practice. :-) A good hug is firmly
snug, but not crushing, requires a relaxed holding of the other
person, (like you would hold them if you were trying to comfort
them), and often includes some small movement, like rocking from
side to side. Hugs last anywhere from one second to one minute,
depending on how the people feel.
After you give her a hug, you can look her in the face while
remaining embraced. Stare into her eyes for a moment as you
smile. If she pulls back, let her go, but keep smiling. If she
doesn't, then just hold her. If she looks down at your mouth, or
closes her eyes, this means she's expecting a kiss. Try being as
delicate as possible... That's usually a goood way to kiss for
the first time. The memory of it will be like a butterfly, light
and beautiful....
It's all fairly straightforward... Anybody else have any nifty
ideas?
-Nick
From: lisad@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (Lisa Dominique)
In article <21143@chaph.usc.edu> jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar) writes:
[ED: Above article, (on 'kissing') deleted.]
Wow, do you have a Lovers' Manual, or what, Nick?! **wink**
I got little goosebumps just reading this.... (wooo wooo!!)
Guys, listen to Nick.... He KNOWS !!!! **Big Smile**
Thanks for sharing this.... I know I certainly enjoyed
reading it!! :-)
--Lis
p.s. Heaven is a **hug** and a **smile**
From: cyao@sal-sun99.usc.edu (Chia-Heng Yao)
In article <5NOV199103034585@zeus.tamu.edu> y018009@zeus.tamu.edu (Lisa Ross) writes:
>I tried to brave the waters right along side my man, but he didn't thing I was
>"able". He fussed at me and forced me to sit back and let HIM take control
>sometimes.I saw my man hurting and tried to take up the slack for him or "brave
>the slings and arrows of outragous fortune to do noble deeds and achieve the
>undying love of my gentleman lover" as you said. He got annoyed and wish I'd
>quit getting in the way. I got hurt at his responses to my trying hard to win
>his undying love. For THAT, I got DUMPED. "Too clingy" was kinda how he saw me.
>I wasn't allowed a whole lot to myself without him wondering what I was up to.
>I wasn't allowed too deeply into HIS life because it was too private or I
>wouldn't know enough and would probably screw it up if I tried to help. Look
>before you leap. Sometimes you men can't get it straight WHAT you want and we
>get hurt in the process. Just my corroded pennies worth.
>Lisa
Good thing you dumped this a**hole!! You'll probably be better in the long
run.
And no, this is NOT what traditional Chinese machismo is about. A good,
Confucius-fearing :) Chinese man is supposed to be a _gentleman_. A bit
old-fashioned perhaps, but never boorish.
Chinese Men! They are like wine; only age brings out the quality ... ;-)
From: mumkb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Matthew K. Bixby)
In article <21001@chaph.usc.edu> jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar) writes:
>In article <91298.133028PATBH@CUNYVM.BITNET> PATBH@CUNYVM.BITNET writes:
>>My best friend just broke up with her boyfriend (for about the third time).
>>She loves this guy very much but she just couldn't put up with his
>>possessiveness and immaturity.
>>My friend is confused over what she should do. She's torn between
>>wanting to be on her own and hanging on to this guy. I really don't
>>know what to tell her. Any advice would be appreiciated.
>She's in love with a) his good qualities, and b) being in a
>relationship. This doesn't change the fact, however, that a
>relationship with him is not what she needs.
What your friend needs to do is look at why she is going back to him. I
was very recently in a similar situation and I received this advice from
a good friend, I feel obligated to pass it on...
have your friend determine if she actually misses HIM, or if she just
misses the closeness of a relationship... relationships can happen with
just about anybody, and once she gets over the fact that she no longer
has one with HIM, she will be able to get involved with someone else.
She most likely is not in love with HIM anymore, although she very well
may still care. Caring and Love are two distinct things, however, and
in a relationship you need Love, as well as Caring.
--
I like your game but we have to change the rules.
From: miss059@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Pug, Nothing more)
In article dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David D Hunt) writes:
>Informal survey:
>Where have people on the net met their SO's?
Well where I met mine is at a BBS party of all things. Yes we are both
computer geeks. And it was in the middle of me breaking up with someone
else. We just started talking cause I needed someone to talk to and have
trouble talking to friends, so I talked to someone I didn't know and
didn't mind listening. Since then, we have feel in love and are holding
a LD relationship cause I had to go back to school. What a pain in the
butt!!
From: ketter@mdd.comm.mot.com (Cindy Ketterling)
In article <1991Nov10.011121.9021@cco.caltech.edu> chris@cco.caltech.edu (Christopher Penn Launey) writes:
Well, this year the AT&T Pacific Northwest and Bell South companies were
both supported solely on a single relationship: Seattle to Atlanta! I'll
tell you all how you can tell if a person REALLY loves you ... I don't
mean to depress anyone or to sound smug here, but I'm a really happy
camper, so I'll tell you a story with True Romance, Love, and a Happy
Ending ... (yes, Virginia, these things CAN happen in the 90's!...)
Back when I was 14, I met a guy at a science fiction convention. He was
12 and a terrible brat, in my honest opinion. But he liked me, and
continued to call, no matter how many times I hung up on him or had my
mother tell him that I wasn't home. A mutual friend tried to put in
a few good words for him, and it severely strained our friendship. Two
years later, I started college. And yes, he had continued to call (and
I had continued to snub him) for both of those years. I hadn't actually
seen him in over a year, which was fine by me at that point.
And then came that fateful day ... another science fiction convention.
If any of you have been to one of these things, you will understand me
when I say that ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN at them. In this particular case,
he and I struck up a conversation face-to-face and discovered that we
had an awful lot in common. (Of course, the fact that he wasn't just
a short & skinny 12-year-old any more helped a lot, I'm sure!) And,
to make a long story short, we developed a relationship; first, just
as friends, and then later as SO's. Two years later, I graduated from
community college and went off to a four-year program in Florida. We
maintained a long-distance relationship for the first year. At this
point, I was 19, he was 17. The next year, he announced that he was
doing the same thing I had done, leaving high school early and going
to college ... and (surprise, surprise) he had been accepted to the
same college I was attending.
It took me two more years to graduate from that Florida college, and
when I did, he still had two more years to go. I had to move to
Seattle. We tried the LDR thing for the summer, then, due to a
variety of reasons, we broke off the relationship. Over the next
three years, we both went on with our lives. We dated other people.
He graduated college, and I took a really nice job here at Motorola.
I thought about him from time to time, and hoped he was having an
interesting and fulfilling life. I also asked about him sometimes,
since we still shared a lot of mutual friends (from the conventions).
The story could have ended at this point ... but, fortunately, it
didn't.
Three months ago, I flew to Georgia to attend the wedding of two of
my college buddies. They were two of the "mutual friends" that I
mentioned before, so I was looking forward to seeing my old SO
again. I wanted to catch up on what he had been doing. I was
really hoping that we could still cultivate the friendship we used
to share. That was the one thing that I missed most about the
relationship ... we had been really good friends. I had also
arranged to spend the week after the wedding in Atlanta with
another old friend of mine, who I hadn't seen in quite a while.
To once again make a long story short, I found out that my old SO
had, in fact, moved back to Atlanta ... giving me plenty of time
to talk to him. However, I will admit to a great amount if
nervousness when I first saw him ... would he still want to resume
our friendship? (He was the one who initiated the breakup.)
Would he be uncomfortable talking to me? Had we both changed so
much that we no longer had anything in common?
So much for being worried. We hit it off immediately, and
realized that we now had even more things in common than we had
had before. And, after talking about everything we could think
of for an amazingly long period of time, we discovered that
neither of us were currently involved in a relationship. And
(big surprise for both of us) we also discovered that we were
both interested in giving ours One More Try.
After my vacation was over, I flew home to Seattle. We still
had not determined the logistics of HOW we were going to get
back together. I was thinking of moving back to Atlantam but
I had this wonderful job here in Seattle (it is so VERY rare to
find a job that you like to go to in the morning!). However, I
really wanted the relationship to work this time ...
He wrote at least once a week. He sent me funny cards. One
day, when I was having a really hideous week, I got back from
lunch to find a letter and a dozen roses on my desk.
Our phone bills got enormous.
** Here's what I promised you: how to tell if he Really Loves
You .. this is a sure-fire indicator!
He bagged his life and moved out here. For the sake of a
relationship with me, he quit his job, left his family and
friends, and drove all the way across the country to a city
he had never even VISITED. And, to make it even tougher ...
he packed his life into a subcompact Honda CRX and drove
across in THREE DAYS. Through icy passes, through heavy
smoke from forest fires, through a dust storm so bad that
they closed the interstate freeways. 2800 miles in three
days. He's been here for three weeks now. Being a computer
programmer, it shouldn't take him very long to find a job.
I feel that I should also mention that we are both very happy.
I guess I'm telling you all this little story to demonstrate
to those who have lost hope that It Can Happen. And to tell
those who disagree that Yes, it does get you when you least
expect it, and when you are not looking for it. Love is
funny that way. Kind of like a cat, really. It'll ignore
your best efforts to coax and cajole it, then jump straight
in your lap the moment you try to do anything non-cat-related.
And maybe I'm just trying to rationalize my phone bill.
Never lose hope! The good ones are still our there, and Nice
Guys are the best of the lot! And if it can happen to ME,
it can happen to ANYONE! Good luck.
- The Cypherkat
From: firestar@leland.Stanford.EDU
In response to your query about whether people should date friends:
I'm female, and I think it's a great idea. It's risky, for lots of reasons:
1. If it doesn't work out, your friendship is destroyed
2. If you have mutual friends you will still have to see your now ex-lover
3. If you have mutual friends, there could be alot of splitting and awkwardness for everyone.
On the other hand, it's a very romantic thing :-), and if you're really good
friends, there could be some wonderful times ahead -- so basically I say that
if you understand the risks and are willing to take them, go for it.
(I realize you were asking for opinions, not advice, and this reads like
advice, but it's supposed to be opinion.)
Firestar
From: miss059@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Pug, Nothing more)
>ccla@marlin.jcu.edu.au writes:
>>Has anyone, after being burned decided that enough is enough and that
>>it's just not worth it? (romance/relationships's that is). I would be
>>interested to hear.
Absolutely. That's when I met my current SO. I had just broken up/was in
the process of, and wanted nothing to do with anyone because I was
moving 1000 miles away in 6 months and BANG! There she was. We are still
seeing each other even.
I think that everytime I broke up with someone, I wanted absolutely
nothing to do with relationships, but everytime I ended up finding
another one at some point. People just can't avoid other people that
easily. Especially if you are a person who NEEDs to be touched.
From mlb@cisco.com (Marcia Bednarcyk)
In article <1991Nov10.212541.18008@marlin.jcu.edu.au>, ccla@marlin.jcu.edu.au () writes:
|>Has anyone, after being burned decided that enough is enough and that
|>it's just not worth it? (romance/relationships's that is). I would be
|>interested to hear.
Sure have...and about the time I make a decision like that, an SO turns up :-).
Seriously, though, I believe in giving one's self time to heal after a
painful break up. Part of that usually means to give up on the whole process
for awhile and concentrate on yourself - getting to know who you are, and
what makes you happy, and ways to please yourself.
The result of this is usually a happier person who is standing on his/her
own. And of course, that's the kind of person that often attracts others...
and so the cycle begins again.
From: 274-0106@mcimail.com (Paul J. Wilczynski)
I've been finding a lot of postings from guys who are having problems
finding a relationship. Most of them (but not all) speaking of their
being a 'nice guy' and not wanting to be aggressive.
This is coming from someone who's 43. I've wanted to comment on these
postings for a while, and finally decided to do it.
When I was a teen thru my mid-20s, I characterized myself as a 'nice guy'.
Same story I hear here on a regular basis ... lots of women would tell me
what a great catch I'd be for someone else. Sounds nice the first time
you hear it. Maybe the second, and possibly the third. After that, it
gets old really fast.
What I finally realized, after a *long* time, was that I was waiting for
"something" to happen, and it didn't. I *certainly* didn't want to offend
a woman by suggesting we be something more than friends, did I? I *certainly*
didn't want to risk getting my face slapped by suggesting (in any manner)
that the bedroom might be an appropriate place to spend the rest of the
evening, did I?
Let me tell you, in no particular order, what I've learned about this whole
thing called "relationships between men and women". Take it for what it's
worth ... and remember it's often worth what you pay for it. Some of these
points are interrelated ...
1. With rare exceptions, women are not offended if you make a pass at them,
as long as it's done with some amount of taste. In fact, after a fairly
short period of time (mileage may vary), women draw an important conclusion
if you *don't* make a pass. And that conclusion is that you're not terribly
interested in being more than a friend. Let me explain that I consider 'make
a pass' to be a very broad term ... it can be something as non-threatening as
putting you hand on her arm briefly and telling her that you think she looks
especially nice tonight.
2. If you're interested in a woman as possibly more than a friend, you *have*
to tell her that - somehow - fairly soon. Probably by the end of the first
date. Again, it doesn't have to be anything Outrageously Significant, but
it's got to be *something*. (see last sentence above). It doesn't have to
be words. It at least has to be some sort of signal.
3. On the subject of compliments:
a. Women enjoy receiving them.
b. But not *all* the time - they get boring and embarrassing.
c. And they *know* when you're lying.
d. You're much better off complimenting a women on something she has
some control over. Her hair style. A piece of jewelry. Her
presentation in a class. Not particularly her eyes, her skin color,
the size of her breasts. *Especially* not the size of her breasts.
4. *Practice* dealing with women, especially if you're shy. They usually
don't bite (some do, actually, but that's another topic and doesn't come
until somewhat later in the relationship ...) How? Easy:
a. Say hi to at least 3 women a day you've never spoken to before, or
maybe even never seen before. Say it when you pass them in the hall.
When you sit down next to them in class. When you buy something from
them in a store. Why?
1) Because you'll probably at the very least get a surprised smile
which will make you feel *lots* better about yourself
2) Because they might say something back to you, and then you're
talking
Don't worry about saying anything else. Just "hi". If you want to
be brave, and it's the right situation (not passing in the hall, for
example), you could try "I don't think we've met ... my name is
." But "hi" is fine the first time.
b. Don't wait until you see the woman of your imagined dreams before
you strike up a conversation. Try to talk to any woman about anything
without making a pest of yourself. The worst that can happen is that
she'll indicate she's not interested in talking. Think of that
reaction as her loss.
c. What can you talk about? Literally, anything. "Whew, it's cold
outside!". "Excuse me, what time have you got?" (possible followed by
"that's a nice watch!", but only if you believe it (See 3c above)).
d. Who do you talk to? Anyone! It's practice, remember?
5. On the subject of being "aggressive" (which "nice guys", of course, don't
like to be) ...
a. Don't think of it as "aggressive". Think of it as "self-confident"
but not really cocky.
b. This quality (and I use that word in a positive sense) is one which
reflects your feeling (you have this feeling, don't you?) that you're
a man worth knowing. Forget about "nice guy". Unfortunately, "nice
guy" equates to wimp/dweeb in too many people's minds. Sure you're
nice - most people are. So what?
c. "Aggressive" in my definition isn't wolf whistles or cat calls. It's
not leering. It's not pawing a woman's body. It's taking some
initiative and not waiting for madam perfection to drop into your
lap (which you as a "nice guy" deserve by definition, of course).
It's showing some honest interest in something about a woman.
I could go on, but that's probably it for a start.
Comments? I'd be interested in comments from women as much as men.
Paul.
From: 274-0106@mcimail.com (Paul J. Wilczynski)
Because of a flood of positive mail (well, a small flood) in response to my
recent posting about relationships between men and women, I thought I'd
pass along a few more random observations. Remember: advice is worth what
you pay for it, and this is based on my experience. Your mileage may vary.
Since I actually got more responses from women (saying that mant of the points
applied equally to women, too), I'm going to divide this up into sections.
A. Both sexes ...
1. Remember that members of the opposite sex are people, just like you.
Women aren't orifaces, guys. Guys have feeling too, women.
2. One of the things that you'll come to find most attractive about a person
of a the opposite sex in terms of a relationship is that the person is
attracted to you. I have to give credit to a discussion in some newsgroup to
this idea, but it really hit me when I read it. Think about it: if a person
doesn't *want* to have a relationship with you, that's really not an
attractive quality about the person, is it? Ever take a course in marketing?
A market is defined in part by those people who want what you're selling. If
a person doesn't want what you're selling, the person isn't in your market!
Not everyone is going to want what you've got, great as it might be.
3. Smile. Not grin, but smile.
4. *Try* to see beyond what a person of the opposite sex looks like on the
outside. Of course, if you look at a person and have to suppress a gag
reflex, that's probably not the one you want to spend a lifetime with, as nice
a personality as (s)he may have.
Remember all those pithy little sayings like "beauty is only skin deep"? Well,
try to remember them. Some of the most beautiful women I have ever known
you wouldn't notice walking down the street. But when they smiled that
special smile at me and only me ... whew. If their Weight isn't quite
Proportional to their Height (WPTH), so what?
Of course, on the other side of the fence, the campus beauty queen is only
human, too, beneath all that lucious, sexy, curvy ... (oh, stop it, Paul!!!!)
5. Try as hard as you can not to get involved with people who are married,
no matter what they say about the state of their marriage, unless they're
separated and have filed papers for divorce.
6. Think about what you say before you say it, from the point of view
of hearing someone else say it to you.
My worst experience in this area: the first time I ever bedded a woman was
when I was about 23. (Late bloomer, obviously). She was about 10 years older
than me and previously married. Things were going well, but I was nervous.
Right at Beginning Moment, she looked up at me and said "Is this your first
time in saddle?" The situation turned out fine, fortunately (she took the
role of Teacher), but the phrasing of the question could have used some work.
8. For men ...
1. I hate to say this is this section, but I think it may apply somewhat more
to men than women. Keep yourself clean, ok? You may have a great mind and
a stunning personality, but if your potential sex partner has to hang
odor eaters around you, it's making the situation just that much more
difficult.
2. Forget about the idea of getting into bed with a woman with the intention
of both of you keeping your clothes on all night, unless that's the way you
want the relationship to be for the rest of all time, or unless you happen
to be into the sex game called "I'm a priest, you're a nun". If it's late
at night and you're a long way from home (or drunk) and she offers with the
caveat that no Private Parts will be exposed, politely decline the offer.
Tell her that she's much too attractive for you to be able to do that without
being overwhelmed by passion (assuming you believe it, of course), then
sleep on the floor or the couch.
3. Often (not always, but very often) when a woman tells you about a problem
she's having, she's not looking to you for the solution. What? That doesn't
make sense? See intro to section C. What she's often looking for is comfort
and reassurance and knowing that you're there.
That's why, when you analyze the situation and present her the options as you
seem them in decreasing order of probable success, she looks at you like
you're from Mars and/or bursts into tears and/or storms off saying "you
haven't heard a word I said!".
Note that this doesn't really apply to a woman who comes to you the day before
a final saying she doesn't know the material. She's looking for your notes or
a course summary she can stick in her shoe for consultation, not your
comforting words that she'll ace the test in spite of having no concept of
what the course was about.
I understand, the nuances of this are rough. Stick with it.
C. For women ...
[This section's a little tough for me because, frankly, I don't really
understand women. No man will *ever* absolutely understand women, hundreds
of books oriented towards Understanding Women to the contrary. Oh, I
understand them *more* as time goes on, but it would take more than one or
two average male lifetimes (AMLs, as we call them) to Understand them.]
1. Whoever invented the game of "play hard to get"? Sheesh. Lots of guys
have enough lack of self-confidence without playing *this* game. I mean,
you don't have to come out and say you want to bear his children, but try
to be honest.
2. Men's emotional swings can be just as wide as yours, PMS notwithstanding.
Your smile can make a guy's day (or week), and your lack of attention can
bring him to the depths of despair.
3. Rejection is *very* hard for a lot of guys to take, so if you're going to
be doing any rejecting, give some thought to how you phrase it. Personally,
the rejection phrase I've found easiest to take is "I'm already involved with
someone". That wasn't a rejection of anything about *me*.
That's it for now,
Paul
From:
Subject: I Finally Told Her!!!
I finally to the advice of the net and everyone else I know and toldthe
girl how I feel. Here's the report. Someone may want to copy this and
send it to someone else who has doubted the power of net wisdom, because,
I now admit, it was not as hard as I expected and the rewards were real.
Since I can write better than I can speak, I wrote a note telling her how
I was afraid to let the chance go by and not tell her how I feel. In the
note I told her that I really wanted to like her. (it would have been
untrue, I think, to say that I already liked her, because I didn't know her
that well.) I told her that it seemed to me that she wasn't letting me,
because she wasn't letting me get to know her. I said that maybe if I
really knew her I might not want to be around her, or maybe I would.
I said that there had been various things that had given me reason to think
that maybe these things might be mutual, but that I am bad at reading people
and I could be way off base.
It closed by saying,"There is no 'right' answer, and the only wrong answer
is the one that is not honest."
I was ready for her to sat "no," and in fact, that's what let me even do it.
If I had thought that there was a chance of something really positive, I
might not have done it.
Anyway, she explained that she wasn't at ease with herself enough to share
herself with anyone, and told me that she was going to apologize for acting
so strangely lately, but when she came over to do so, my friend was in the
room, and she didn't feel like saying anything in front of him.
She told me that in all the times we had talked, she hadn't gotten to
know me either. (So I realized that there may have been some truth to my
guesses that maybe she wanted to know me, too, but was too nervous or
something, and was not able to.)
All in all, when she left, I didn't feel that different. She had finally
told me what I had already suspected, and so nothing really new was
established. But the most important thing is that I finally told her, and
gave her the chance to tell me how she felt. Now, a couple of years down
the road, I won't be kicking myself for letting her get away, because she
basically said that because of the way things were/are it probably couldn't
have happened anyway.
I am at peace with her, myself, and the world.
Life, libertym and the Happiness of pursuit!
Gordon.
From: george@smsc.sony.com (George Maestri)
Subject: Re: Remaining friends with an ex SO.
>hello all,
>
> i have been involved with a special person for the last four
>years and our relationship has changed. we have chosen to take different
>paths in life and i think we are doing the right thing ( but i'm not totally
>sure )
> i met Cathy in university and had the best four years in my
>life (so far ). at first, the relationship was totally physical, but it has
>grown to something much more. she has become one of my best friends and i hate
>to lose the friendship just because we are no longer lovers. we have talked
>and have both decided to remain friends.
>
> i hope it works, but i can see problems in the future ( i.e. a new SO
>who does not like the fact that we were once lovers ) and i would like to hear
>from people who have had experiences like this, the problems they encountered
>and the way they handled them. plus any other hints that may be helpful.
>
>thanx,
>
>stef
Well, my theory is if you had a good strong relationship, then
remaining friends should be easy. If you can't be friends, then
it must not have been a very good relationship to begin with.
Remaining friends just takes a little bit of time and *lots*
of understanding (no egos or jealousy - ok ?).
From my experience, I know that it can work out. My ex-wife and I
still share a very close friendship. It wasn't always that way,
especially right after the divorce. We promised, however, to
remain friends because of our daughter. But after the first year
or so (we've been divorced 5 years), the pain of the separation
faded, and the friendship remained. It is now stronger than ever.
Renee is one of the best friends I'll ever have.
It's great to have a friend who knows me as well as she does, and
who I can be totally honest with. Renee will always give it to me
straight when it comes to personal advice (and vice-versa).
As for potential jealousy with a new SO, that can be a problem,
one that we've both encountered. Usually, the SO that refuses
to understand will probably not last anyways, because they refuse
to accept you as you are, undermining the relationship. Renee's new
husband and I are great friends (probably 'cuz we're so much alike).
We've gotten along since day one, without question. I'm really happy
they finally got married. (I was best man at the wedding).
My friendship with Renee (and Ralph) has also helped our daughter cope
with the divorce and Renee's remarriage. She's happy and well adjusted.
So, it can work, just value the friendship for what it is, be honest,
and it should take care of itself.
George.
From: jpalmer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John D Palmer)
Subject: Re: Nice Guy problems
In article <1992Apr10.144917.10804@sunb10.cs.uiuc.edu>
ebratton@sunc7.cs.uiuc.edu (Help Wanted...) writes:
>Help! Should I try and NOT be so sensitive and give them advice on things, or
>should I not spend much time with them initially, but instead just ask them
>out right off the bat, so that they can't say that they would be jeopardizing
>a friendship? *sigh*
Well. . . here's what you should do.
First, *IS* there a problem with your not having a girlfriend? If
the answer is yes, you are looking for one actively. If the answer is
no, then you are doing fine. Sooner or later there will be a woman
who will fall in love with you. It will just take time.
Okay, assuming 1), since 2) is resolved, you are 'looking'. You also
seem to imply that you are spending lots of time together with one woman
at a time. . . and the result is not what you want. (I might ask if you are
also spending lots of tiem with your friends . . . ie, those no-longer-to
-be-considered-available women. If so, same thing applies) It would seem
that a more effective use of your time would be seeing more women and
spending less time with each.
AH! But if you ARE like I WAS, you say "But wait. . . Sarah needs SOMEONE
to type her paper in tonight, and Mary REALLY wants to go dancing with me
saturday, and Brenda likes to study with me on sundays. . . "
At which point you realize that :Hey. . . I'm living for other people,
hurting myself. I should stop hurting myself at all costs. . . since the
hurt isn't getting me anywhere. Therefore, I should either a) date around
a lot more or b) be satisfied with my friendships as they stand."
And then you're finished. . . because your problem is solved.
John
"I chose b) in the penultimate paragraph. I don't claim it was 'right',
but I'm still here and I don't regret it. . ."
Dating Skills
From: mlb@lager.cisco.com (Marcia Bednarcyk)
[ED: On 'What are Dating Skills?':]
Pretty much the same as your everyday garden-variety social skills. If you want
a good (and extremely humorous) idea of what they are, read "Miss Manners'
Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behaviour". IMHO, this book should be required
reading for all who post to the "relationship" groups, since it contains some
of the most practical guidelines to getting along socially that I've ever
seen.
Above the politeness, I think an important dating skill is developing a skin
of the right thickness. Too thick, and you become an insensitive boor. Too
thin, and every rejection sends you into a year long depression. Neither is
very productive.
Finally, there's something I've seen a lot of over the net...and that's
assuming malice where it is more likely obliviousness, carelessness, a
different set of operating principles, or something else in the area of
just not communicating something. If you interpret your partner's actions
in a certain strong way, let him/her know - often that is NOT what was
intended. (Sometimes it is, and it's better to know that explicitly, too.)
From: angelok@misg.UUCP (Angelo the Postmaster)
Azmeer writes:
> >will somebody help me out by just telling me WHAT THE HECK ARE DATING
> >SKILLS?
It is the ability to have fun... The object of dating is to have
fun. Enjoy yourself! When you can have a good time, that's when
you have the girls, cause girls want to be around the guys who
know how to have fun!
From: userisra@mts.ucs.ualberta.ca (Mark Israel)
In article , leslie.bbs@shark.cse.fau.edu
(Leslie Byer) writes:
> This is gonna sound lame, but I have a friend who hasn't dated
> much - she recently started "seeing" a guy she likes, but is
> extremely nervous about the way she should act, the things
> she should do... when on a date with him.
Are you sure she's as nervous as she could be? Maybe she should
use Peggy Josephs' Ten Ways to Make Yourself a Nervous Wreck:
1. Spend all week fantasizing about the boy who asked you out. Convince
yourself that he's a god, not a mere mortal. He's never felt nervous,
insecure, or embarrassed in his whole life.
2. Leave yourself plenty of time to get ready. Days, if possible,
hours certainly.
3. Make sure you finish dressing at least a half hour before your date
is due to arrive. This will leave you plenty of time to get nice
and upset.
4. Under no circumstances give yourself permission to be nervous.
So what if it's natural to be nervous? You're supposed to be
perfect, remember?
5. Forget about having fun. This date has been arranged for one purpose
and one purpose only: for you to measure up and pass inspection.
6. Forget about liking him. Remember: all the choices are his. He has
a right to decide how he feels about you, but you have no right at all
to decide how you feel about him.
7. Tell yourself that your entire future hinges on this date. Focus on
the fact that if you blow this one, you might as well leave town.
8. Remind yourself that nothing in the world is more important than
winning his approval. So what if you have beautiful eyes, can run
a mile, and keep an A average? So what if there are three other boys
who want to go out with you? If your date doesn't fall in love with
you tonight, you just don't make it as a human being.
9. Take it for granted that he'll be critical. Don't make the mistake
of thinking that he might not judge you. He didn't ask you out
because he likes you and thinks you're pretty. He asked you out
because he wants to spend the evening picking you apart.
10. Concentrate only on yourself. *Don't* think that he might have some
nervous feelings, too. *Don't* try to help him feel at ease. *Don't*
think that together, the two of you might make a good team. Instead,
think only of yourself and your own feelings.
On the other hand, if she's one of those weird types who would rather
enjoy a first date than sweat it out, maybe she should read the above
hints and do the opposite. :-)
> I saw the recent posting of dating skills for men - but does anyone
> have any ideas for dating skills for women???
Well, how about:
1. Be on time. Unpunctuality is a fault with *no* redeeming features.
(However, if your date is late, don't let it spoil the evening --
remain pleasant!)
2. Wear something that makes you feel pretty -- an outfit that's proved
itself, with comfortable shoes.
3. Tell yourself you're not nervous, just excited.
4. Read a newspaper or watch a news program that day so you'll have
something to talk about and sound as if you know what's happening in
the world.
5. If you can begin with the exchange of warm relaxed smiles, you have
a lot going for you.
6. Be open -- to him, his plans, and the shape the evening takes.
7. Use every opportunity to be observant, sensitive, perceptive, and
appreciative of what your date does or may have done.
8. If something embarrassing happens, "confess" so that you can both
laugh over it.
9. If you're having a good time, let him know it.
10. Call him because you've just heard something that he'd love to know
about, a joke on a favourite subject, or a piece of news relating to
one of his heroes. He will feel that you two are really on the same
beam, and it will encourage him to think of you when *he* has news
he wants to share with someone.
11. Be busy. Projects of your own make for much more interesting
discussion than last night's TV program.
12. Caring about each other more than petty victories is the essence of
positive loving. Equality is not measured by a single act.
userisra@mts.ucs.ualberta.ca Mark Israel
"Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies." -- Elie Wiesel
From: PAISLEY@auvm.american.edu
In article , leslie.bbs@shark.cse.fau.edu says:
[ED: On dating skills:]
No, this is not lame at all. So many people forget that there
is some effort (not necessarily a lot) required to make a date
worthwhile. I posted a list of dating skills earlier, and tried
to keep them rather gender neutral, they were basically designed
for whoever asked for the date. These days, this can either be
the man or the woman. I'll try my hand at the gender specific
thing now....
Again, I'm not working from any kind of list, but here's my input
from a guy's point of view--these are the things I would like to
expect from a date:
1. Appreciate your date. Remember that he asked you out because he likes
you, and wants to get to know you better. And you probably think roughly
the same of him or you wouldn't have agreed to go out with him. Keep this
in mind.
2. Since one of the reasons he asked you out was to get to know you better,
LET HIM. The most frustrating date I ever had was when, after the date, I
didn't know any more about the girl or how she felt about me. On a date,
let some of yourself out. You don't have to tell him your life story, but
some insight into who you are would really be nice.
3. Remember his feelings. Hopefully, he has given some thought to make the
date something you will enjoy, but if he hasn't, don't let that ruin things
automatically. First of all, he may just be uncreative. Or, you might just
find out that it wasn't as bad as you originally thought.
4. Be understanding. Chances are, he is just as nervous as you are, and so
he may say or do some really stupid things. Try to be patient, unless he
REALLY screws up.
5. All the ideas about making your date feel special still apply. Look
at him when you talk, listen to what he says, make him feel like he really
matters to you.
6. Remember your manners. Again, this sounds really silly, but little things
like saying thank-you for dinner mean a lot. Well, it's not so much that
they mean a lot, but THEIR OMISSION means a hell of a lot, and in a bad way.
There is not much worse that to take all the time, money and effort to take
someone out and not even get a thank-you out of it. It's so little and it can
mean so much.
Well, that's all I can think of right now, just try to remember these, along
with basic common sense, and above all else, ENJOY YOURSELF!!!!
From: wjb@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Bill Buse)
Numbers 1 through 4 of this list is good thoughts on dates and how to have
skills that helps to make dates positive experirnces.
[ED: I couldn't get 'this list'... :-( ]
> 5) Have a plan. Don't just say "hey, let's go out and do something".
> Take the time to plan where to go and what to do, and make sure that
> you have enough time to do it. You don't have to be anal retentive
> about planning exactly one hour and thirty-seven minutes for dinner
> and then a twenty-eight minute walk to the two hour-five minute
> movie, but you don't want to be rushing to get somewhere on time, or
> showing up to a movie or play late. Also, by taking time to plan
> something, you are showing your date that he or she is important
> enough to you to warrant you taking the time to plan something
> special do on your date.
I agree that it is good to have a plan, but its also important to keep some
flexibility to the plan and to allow for some spontaneity.
[ED: This is number 7]
I'd also add an 8th item to the list:
8) Be Yourself. Don't try to put on a show just to impress your date
or try to be someone that you really are not. Its important to feel
comfortable with yourself, as well as to let your date get to know
the "real you". Its also important to not set expectations as to
how the date will go and how the two of you will get along. Allow
things to happen "naturally" at a pace that is comfortable to both
of you.
From: jed189@ecs.soton.ac.uk (JE Dixon)
1) Don't lie. Never lie. NEVER. Its OK for one night. You lie thru
your teeth to be interesting. Great ! You get the second date. Now you
have to be consistent with all the lies you told on your first date.
Tricky. Five dates later you have to revise for two days before each
date.
2) Don't pretend to be someone you're not. Your date might like this
other person. She'll call this other person, she'll come to see this
other person, she might even sleep with this other person. But when
she says F*** YOU, she'll be saying it to you not the other person.
3) Never surprise your date with a movie, meal etc on the first date.
Not until you've got some vague idea of her likes and dislikes.
Putting a poor unsuspecting girl thru 'Meatslayer And The Wartoids
From The Planet SoftPorn' is not a good idea.
4) A sense of humour (refined if possible) is your best ally. Women
like someone that makes them laugh.
5) Clean nails. VITAL.
6) Don't lie to anyone else about the date and what happened. It
always goes horribly wrong.
ADVANCED TIPS:
7) Never take your pants off before your socks.
8) Roll over, go to sleep. WRONG. Cuddle, kiss, roll over, go to
sleep. RIGHT.
Practice makes slightly better, but never perfect.
You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet your prince(ss).
Good Luck!
From: gds@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
In article <1991Oct24.130116.1911@wetware.uucp> diana@wetware.uucp (Diana G.) writes:
>One thing to be sure and remember is that the whole 'dating' ritual
>DOES carry a large stigma, and put a lot of pressure on people. YOU
>may not be putting the pressure on the person, or may THINK you're
>not, but the simple act of 'asking someone out' is by default
>putting on the pressure. You don't have to do anything but ask,
>and the pressure is there.
I don't believe this is universally true. From my experiences and what
I've been told, there is pressure in dating when:
* the askee is not (romantically) interested in the asker
* the askee feels they do not know the asker well enough to accept,
independent of how [s]he feels about the askee
* the expectations of the askee aren't realistic
>So - DON'T ask for 'dates'. Get to know the person casually first.
This could backfire; if you come across someone who is actually
interested in getting to know you in a romantic way, if you get to
know them casually, they may feel you are not interested and it will
kill off their interest.
Anyway, I think our society puts too much pressure on dating. I think
it's because there are romantic undertones to it. Something really
simple like asking someone to lunch, or for a walk, or for ice cream
shouldn't be complicated. I think it's too bad that people get
worried about other people's motives when (in some cases) all they're
really trying to do is get to know the other person a little better.
I find myself trying to figure out what's the best way to ask a woman
out so if she's interested in me, she'll realize I'm interested as
well, without having to feel stressed or wonder what my motives are.
In some cases it's kept me from asking some women out who I really
wanted to get to know better because I couldn't think of a "safe" way
to do it. Sigh.
From: lisad@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (Lisa Dominique)
In article <23466@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> boennerc@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Robert) writes:
>A net-friend and I have been going over this subject:
>Is it appropriate to use the honesty approach in meeting women?
>(ie. Hi. I think you're very pretty, would you like to talk and see if we have
>some things in common?)
>What's your opinion? Have you ever tried this? etc.
From my standpoint as a woman, I truelly believe that the
**ONLY** way to be when around a woman is HONEST....
Honesty, along with trust and communication, is a key
ingredient to a successful relationship.
Now you refer to the honesty "approach"....I think, as ong
as you are polite and respectful, the honesty approach would
be the best. This is my opinion....
From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
In article <23466@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> boennerc@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Robert) writes:
>A net-friend and I have been going over this subject:
>Is it appropriate to use the honesty approach in meeting women?
>(ie. Hi. I think you're very pretty, would you like to talk and see if we have
>some things in common?)
>What's your opinion? Have you ever tried this? etc.
Honesty is the best policy, but you want to avoid cliches, worn
out phrases, and trying to be too witty.
Things like:
'My goodness! I'd love to have something witty to say, but
you've left me speechless!'
...or...
'Hi. I couldn't help but notice that you're both bright and
well-educated. I'm dying of curiosity about you, but I have no
idea how to strike up a conversation, so... How's the weather?'
...should get you a positive reaction, if not the person's
attention. I would think that if you mentioned why you found
the person interesting, and then about your nervousness, (if any)
that they're curiosity would be aroused.
Of course, I don't pick up women, so I can't speak of results...
(In fact, I haven't even been MEETING women, lately... :-) )
From: treon@milton.u.washington.edu (Treon Verdery)
Here's my attempt at advice on how to meet 'someone'.
I have to warn you though, my romatic life is characterized by remarkable
success alternating with extreme failure. Right now I'm in failure mode;
avoiding people, closing myself off, minimizing happy mammal interactions
of all kinds. Nevertheless, meeting women who -like- me isn't
usually too difficult. Maintaining interest in them/anything is.
I think the best 'pickup' lines are not lines, but situations.
Meeting someone new while you are alone is difficult. Meeting someone
when you are with a friend is much easier. If you want to meet a new SO,
don't go out looking by yourself -go with a friend! It will cheer you
up and you will feel less 'desperate'. Perhaps most importantly it will
be fun to hang out with your friend(s). If you don't have any friends,
or your friends seem unsuitable try and make some. Horrible advice.
Horrible horrible advice isn't it: "lonely? make friends!". If you are
schizoid (emotionally chilly, w/a withdrawing nature) or don't speak
english with confidence you can still make friends. consider 'activities'.
(School is an 'activity', I suspect that's why I'm still going!)
So there you are, hanging out with someone of no SO interest, but fun
company nevertheless. If you really want to be calculating about meeting
an SO go on some sort of weird expedition with your friend. Go up to
likely looking people and tell them 'your friend' wants to meet them.
learn a talent, or use one you already have and do your talent with
your friend around (the third person really helps to defuse the weirdess
of it all). Play harmonica, sing, balance multiple spoons on your face,
read palms, express ideas.
One thing to think about: When you go out SO hunting with your friend,
the two of you will have different personas. You can use your friend's
strengths through the power of association!!! Yes, you too can take advantage
of this EVIL phenomena. If you dress in rags, hang out with someone
who looks good, they will 'make' you respectable. If you dress neatly, but
seem drab, hang out with a 'bohemian'. I like to talk a lot and dress poorly.
When I hang out with my handsome quiet friend it is remarkable how
many women introduce themselves. He draws them, and I get to
talk with them and see them smile! A good deal for both of us.
In fact, we envy one another a little.
Whatever you do, don't share your friend's identity! Think of all the
totally dull looking groups of 2 and 3 people wearing near-exactly the
same clothes (3 people wearing black) (3 people wearing XYZU sweats, etc).
Not only do people in these groups seem run-of-the-mill, they also seem
unapproachable -as if they belong to some alien tribe that excludes people
who look different.
So there you are, laughing with your good, non SO company. You are
dressed in rags, s/he is dressed in something handsome. You are in public,
balancing spoons on your nose or something.
At this point, people will interact with you even if they don't know you.
If you are shy, people will interact with you because you are associated
with a happy circumstance. Even if your outgoing friend is, um, selfish,
h/she will cause lots of introduction around you, and you can take advantage
of the rich stream of people going by. If you are terribly serious about
arranging a 'social group' I think two men and one woman attracts women.
Two women and one man attracts men. I don't have anything sensible to say
about gay men, except perhaps they are easiest to meet when you are alone!
I need to say a few words here on personal appearance. If you are
in the bottom 2% of personal hygiene move it up to at least the 15th
percentile. This is based on personal experience.
Strangers seem to like me *much* better when I shave and have
washed my hair within the past two days. For men, these two things, along
with clean clothes will make a huge difference. Ah woe! all those years
I wasted with a recurrent 6 day beard, greasy hair and recycled clothes!
I'm not sure what, if anything, I can suggest to women. -So I won't!
If someone wants me to, then post or send mail. Our society has
really been nasty and brutish about female appearance norms, and I don't
want to perpetuate that.
Thus ends part I 'create a good situation' of 'pickup lines that work
Remember, like many guides, it is written by the clueless.
From: diana@wetware.uucp (Diana G.)
In article <1991Oct26.020705.25783@cs.ucla.edu> gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
]
] I don't understand what you are saying here. I'm not even talking
] about having gone out on a date yet; I'm talking about deciding
] whether or not to ask someone out based upon interest I've developed
] over a period of time, and wondering what is the safest, most
] non-threatening way to do that. I can (and do) enjoy someone's
] company for it's own sake. However, eventually I have to decide
] whether or not I want to pursue something more, or just remain
] platonic friends,...
In that case - you don't 'ask for a date'. Because of all the
negative connotations that can arise, it's better to avoid that
question.
Presumably, from your post, you've gotten to know SOMEthing about
their interests. So 'Hey - this was FUN! Are you going to be
here ? Let's sit together and talk
some more!'. (One example of a non-date 'date') Or if you are
in a place where you're not likely to see them regularly (you
can use the above example even if you met them in a grocery
store, y'see), try asking if they want to go get coffee, or
something like that RIGHT THEN. Be spontaneous. It shows you
really ARE interested in them - and doesn't give time for the
dating anxiety to build. Or try 'I'd like to continue this
discussion - but I can't right now. Let's meet tomorrow at
and keep talking'.
This type of showing interest is not threatening, shows an interest
in THEM as a person, and doesn't make it seem like a ***DATE***.
After you've met like this a few times, then you should know
enough about them to ask them to dinner and a movie (like: you're
talking about a movie that will open in a week or so - so you
just say - Hey! Let's go see it together - and we can meet early
enough to have dinner before... Again - it's a date, but it's
not a ***DATE***).
I'm not sure if I'm getting the idea across. I've gone to a lot
of places with a variety of men - in other words, on a lot of
dates, but I think I've probably had only about 4 or 5 ***DATE***s
in my life. And the ones that hadn't started out with the
casual encounters were NOT fun. I was too stressed to enjoy
myself.
From: ANNE@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
In article <1991Nov13.005113.18513@rice.edu>, kerryg@rice.edu (Kerry Go) says:
>To me, a more relevant question is: Is all this activity actually "dating"?
>What constitutes a date for you? Is going to dinner with someone of your
>sexual preference *always* a date, i.e., is it the activity? Would you have
>to (want to/actually) (hold hands with/kiss/fuck/etc.) with the other person
>for it to be a date? I have no problems with doing stuff one-on-one with a
I read somewhere ("Sex Tips for Girls" by Cynthia Heimel, I think) that
a "date" is "a prearranged meeting with someone about whom you have
indecent intentions" (;). In other words, it's with someone who I think
that someday/sometime in the future (or even during the "date") I would
want to kiss/hold hands with/fall in love with/ neck with/ sleep with, etc.
Usually on the first few dates, I'm trying to determine whether I would
want to. HOwever, if I decide I definitely *wouldn't* want to, then I
probably wouldn't continue to go on "dates" with them. NOt that I
wouldn't want to do things with them (movies, dinner, lunch, etc); but
it would be clear in my mind that it would be same as doing things with
my friends.
The trouble I have is when I don't feel like I've had enough time to
decide whether I would want to have such intentions towards someone,
but they have already decided. Or I have decided I wouldn't ever, but
they still want to from me. In those cases I always feel like they're
waiting for me to "make up my mind" and I owe them to decide on the basis
of a few dates.
Of course, there are those who will say if I need "a few dates" to decide,
then I don't really want the guy in the first place. And perhaps you're
right. But this came out of the thread on how much pressure "dating" has
become because it seems to always imply jumping right into physical
contact, without taking time to learn whether that contact is desired.
Lee Anne
From: melliott@convex.com (Mark Elliott)
>In article <13JAN199219164091@lims05.lerc.nasa.gov> afdenis@lim05.lerc.nasa.gov (Stephen Dennison) writes:
>>In article <13994@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, 33s@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Angie Brvenik) writes...
>>>
>>BTW, from a man's perspective, the fact that you
>>have children shouldn't be a problem IMHO. Since you *obviously* were at
>>least amenable to haveing children, the right person for you would probably
>>also be family oriented and it wouldn't be a problem.
Key words here.....the right person
> For me, having a long-term relationship with a single/divorced mom is
>a major problem. I do not want the problems raising somebody else's child.
I can understand that, I am also a single parent and the last thing I would
ever want is a woman that didn't want to be there because of the kids.
As for Angie, just try to go on about your life like nothing ever happened
and you will come across guys. They will not be near as abundant as the days
when you were in your pre-marriage state, but they will be around. Don't be
a home-body like so many single moms I know, go out.....even if it is to
the local kiddies playground, be sociable.....that's the hard one, don't
be afraid to strike up a conversation with a guy that piques your interest.
Grocery stores (everybody has to eat), restaurants, laundromats (look for the
ones that are 'acting' like they are lost....it is an act to get your attention
because they are too shy to start a conversation...
There are lotsa places to go lotsa things to do, just don't get yourself in
a rut worrying about it. Most of all, if you are lonely when you are by yourself
you will probably be lonely no matter who is with you.
From: ok@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Richard A. O'Keefe)
In article <1992Feb12.053108.9288@cs.rose-hulman.edu>, zaidioa@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
> And now here's the heart of the matter. Last night, I talked to her and
> told her much of what you see above and she said that she wished I had
> told her these things when we first met since she believes that if you
> have to take more than one meeting with someone to decide how you truly
> feel about them, then it's not true love at all. I wholeheartedly agree
> and I had these feelings the first time I met her. She knows that now
> But I said that I didn't know if I could keep the relationship at the
> level it is at and not have my feelings get in our way. She said I waqs
> free to walk away anytime I wanted.
I have had two serious relationships in my life. (I know what I mean by this;
it may not be what you'd mean by it.) That doesn't make me any kind of
expert. I do want to say this: "If you have to take more than one meeting
with someone to decide how you truly feel about them, then it's not true
love at all" had better not be true. I've heard that men take about 5 dates
to decide, women about 12 (I think this comes from a book called "A Fine
Romance"). Let me put it this way: if another _man_ claimed to know me well
enough to judge me after just one meeting, I would be outraged at his
arrogance. In the first of my two relationships, it took a long time, because
both of us are fairly reticent people. Heck, it was a year before we kissed,
although I was hoping for much of that time that we were headed for marriage.
Finally, when I opened up about how I felt about something, she opened up
about how she thought and had acted. I tried to cope, but the difference in
question blew the relationship apart (or rather, how we handled it blew the
relationship apart), *NO WAY* could I have known about this after one
meeting. On there other hand, there _are_ tactful ways she could have let me
know about the difference early on, and I could have backed out gracefully.
In the second of my two relationships, things went so much faster that after
going out with Jeanene for three weeks I _knew_ I wanted to marry her. But
it was another couple of months before I was sure I had my head straight
enough for it to be fair to ask. We've been married seven months so far,
and so far so wonderful.
It sounds as though I'm saying that the "fast" relationship _was_ "true love".
Yes and no. Jeanene had known _about_ me for years, and respected my
position on the issues which had ended the other relationship. Before our
first date, she had a pretty clear idea of my character, and we were both
so honest with each other it still amazes me. We were learning about each
other fast. The point is that even going fast, it wasn't until we had been
going out for three weeks that I knew Jeanene well enough to be in love with
_her_ rather than with an _image_ of her. After one meeting, what can you
love? A face? A shape? A voice? Maybe one's instincts are right, but
how can you _know_ after one meeting? And romantic or rationalist, if you
love someone, you want to act responsibly towards them. Which means that
you want to be sure that you are loving (or at least trying to love) the real
person.
Based on what zaidioa@rosevc.rose-hulman.edu posted, he was acting
responsibly. Well done, that man.
Someone else had a posting mentioning unconditional love. From what I hear,
it's something that's much demanded and seldom provided (least of all by the
people who demand it). I like to think that the way I act to Jeanene is a
good approximation to unconditional love, but she loves me back, ...
From: ANNE@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
In article <29FEB199210463656@zeus.tamu.edu>, flr6445@zeus.tamu.edu (TRAVIS
RAYBOLD) says:
>
>I was wondering if anyone out there might have a little advice about how
>to go about chosing whom to date. I know it sounds silly, but it has become
>a real problem for me.
>
>1) I have to find her attractive. Perhaps this is wrong, but it's true.
>2) I have to have fun while Im around her. (I think that goes w/o saying)
>
>but what else?
>
>3) Should I have to agree with the majority of her ideals? religion, politics,
>etc..?
>4) Should I decide by the way I have seen her treat people in the past? (not
>knowing of course *why* she treated them the way she did)
>5) Should I just go with my feelings and date whosoever I feel like? (thats
>getting me in trouble...)
>6) Should I avoid dating anyone that a friend of mine was formerly interested
>in? (thats gotten my in trouble too...)
>
>Anything else you can come up with??
>
> ===Curiosity (currently confused)
Well, I'd say it depends on what you think the purpose of dating is. To
find someone to marry? To find someone to have a romantic relationship
with that may or may not end in marriage? To find someone to sleep with?
To have someone else participate in an activity with you that you don't
want to do alone? (I guess sex could fall in here too, but for the sake
of discussion, I'll just lump all non-sexual activities in this
category :)!
If you're using dating as a system to find someone to marry, then I would
guess you'd want someone who you find attractive, fun to be with, and
has similar views on religion, values, family that you do.
If you're using dating as a way of finding someone to have a romantic but not
necessarity permanent relationship with, you probably don't need to have the
same values, religion, etc. You could also date whomever you feel like, and
just stop seeing them when it doesn't become romantic (since you didn't
expect it to be permanent anyway). Be aware that while you may be operating
on the "non-permanent" plane, the other person may be dating to find a
suitable marriage partner, and consequently this might get you "in trouble".
As for #6, this system might still give you trouble, although you could just
tell your friend you're not expecting anything permanent, so they still have
a shot.
If you want to use dating to get sex, then you probably could just date
whoever you find attractive and you feel like dating (I suppose you may
or may not care whether you have fun with them :) As for the friend issue,
you could then just tell them you're only dating for sex, and they still
have a shot at the girl.
If you're dating for sharing activities, then I'd say you're not really
dating, but doing stuff with a friend --then it wouldn't matter if you're
attracted, having fun with them is important, and you could tell your
friend who's interested that you and the girl are "just friends".
I think the reason you're "getting in trouble" is that you're dating
for a reason which is not the same reason the other person is dating. I think
once you think about what you want from dating, then you can communicate
it to others from the beginning and there won't be any misunderstandings.
Lee Anne
Love is...
From: ram@lionet.wesley.oz.au (Richard A. Muirden)
Hi there;
I'm new on this list, [Rainbow Coalition] so if I'm rehashing old ground
I'm sorry. I just saw the last couple of posts on Jealousy and was interested
to hear what was said for a couple of reasons. First, jealousy is something that
I have had to deal with in the past, and fortunately, I feel I have overcome it.
Currently, my SO is on a fishing boat in the Bering Sea where she is
surrounded by a lot of young, single men most of whom haven't even seen
a woman (other than the three on this ship) for about a month. We've
discussed the issue (she brought it up actually) and put it to rest in a
rather fatalistic way. That is, there is nothing I can physically do to
change what is happening directly, so I just make sure that I provide as
much "non-direct" support as possible. This means writing letters, lots of
letters not to mention poetry and stories. In any case, the
non-direct support is meant to make the person think of you as much as
possible so that they don't end up seeking out companionship out of
default.If you don't provide it, then you are asking the other person
to go looking for someone who WILL provide it, among other things.
Second (yes there is a second point 80) ), I had to respond to Lynne's
comment that using E-Mail made things easier because you can think out
what you are saying and say it just right. I tend to be a person who
relies on visual and aural cues (expression, posture, tone of voice,
choice of words, etc.) to determine how the
person is taking what I am saying. Obviously, E-Mail (or snail mail for
that matter) eliminates that. This makes it quite difficult for me to
discuss touchy subjects indirectly. Face to face is no problem, but when
you can't see how the other person is taking what you are saying, it is
often easy (for me) to end up saying too much or not enough because there
is no feedback determining how what you are saying is going over. That's
a complicated way of saying that the telephone gets used a lot.
Unfortunately, when she is on a fishing boat, the only telephone is
ship to shore radio-phone which provides zero privacy (it is actually
quite fun to try to use the telephone on Mother's day, Christmas and
Valentine's day since you can't help but hear everyone calling home
to their sweethearts). The upshot is, that I have to qualify what I think
Lynee was saying (for myself at least) and suggest that communication can
be a real problem for many people in an ldr, but there are ways of overcoming
the difficulties. For us, that way is to mention, but not discuss the issues
so that the other person is prepared the next time we get to talk on the
phone. This tends to lead to weeks of nailbiting, but it also avoids extreme
misunderstandings that can terminate a relationship without cause.
Just my $0.02
From: prauda@dol-guldur.hut.fi (Kristiina Prauda)
Is it possible for a man to really love two women at the same time?
Well, from my own experience (though the other way round), I'd say
it may be possible, but most often there are other factors in the
situation, factors that have nothing to do with love. Boredom, need
for change, emotional unsecurity about something in the older
relationship... and well, of course, physical attraction to someone
new who happens to hit your personal subconscious ideals.
But is it real love? I don't think so, but this is just my experience.
I think real love is something you have to fight for, not something
that just strikes you like a lightning. *Attraction* may strike that
way, but *love* doesn't. It takes time to grow.
Oh well, these things have been said here countless times before. But
just believe me, I've been there: if you have an relationship already,
and then fall for another one, the reasons have probably more to do
with your older relationship than with the new one. Think carefully
what drives you in the situation and USE YOUR HEAD, not just your
emotions, because they are not as unerring as all of us romantics
would love to believe (me, too, but I've been forced to learn).
Besides, if people want more than other people around them can bear,
someone will get hurt. True love doesn't seek out things that hurt
(one of) the loved one(s), as someone already pointed out. So many of
us are so fragile that it's no wonder open relationships are rare.
If your loved ones are strong enough... well, that's another matter
then.
But true love for two women, and in that situation? I seriously doubt
that.
Kristiina
From: andrewb@suite.sw.oz.au (Andrew Bettison)
In <1992Feb27.124831.22184@news.iastate.edu> partee@iastate.edu writes:
> [ A cleared explanation of this concept of "unconditional love" and
> its practice. ]
> Strive to provide unconditional love. Strive to be other-centered. You will
> fall short -- you are human! -- but at least have a lofty goal in mind! When
> you fall short, pick yourself up again, dust yourself off and start anew.
Jonathon, you've made yourself much clearer. Indeed, as you point
out, UL is a fine thing, especially when practiced by someone
posessing good personal skills and with high self-esteem.
Which brings me to thinking, again...
I can see that the creed of UL is very easily misinterpreted, as
illustrated by our first exchange. As further examples, I can
imagine it being corrupted into any of the following:
1. A game with yourself. "Here I am, freely offering unconditional
love and always ending up hurt, or hurting. I will always
be a martyr to the cause of UL, even though it inevitably
makes me miserable. Aren't I just so good." (Subtext: I
will never let myself be loved, because nobody can love as
unconditionally as I.)
2. A game with others. Many people seem unable to accept
open, unqualified adoration or respect from their partner,
and end up playing games to frustrate it. They're essentially
unable to face commitment. Unconditional love scares them,
so they'll fight back with all sorts of games, usually
without deliberate intent. Your unconditional love for
them becomes your way of fighting back.
3. An excuse to avoid responsibility. If your love is given
unconditionally, then you refuse to enter into negotiations
that involve your relationship with your partner, because
that would be placing conditions.
Et cetera.
The point I'm trying to make is that perhaps UL is a way of relating
that should only be approached by people who have reached a certain
stage of maturity in their own personal development; they have
discovered and dealt with the games they play with themselves, they
have learned to recognise the games that others play, and they have
developed strong communication skills.
Speaking for myself, I feel that the ultimate goal of UL must be
set aside for the time being, while I focus on other aspects of
me. In my present state, an immediate, unqualified commitment to
UL may do more harm than good. But I'll always bear it in mind.
> (P.S. Andrew, I will never feel "attacked" if you present your arguments
> logically and without specific insults or a patronizing attitude directed
> at me. Your letter was fine! =)
Thanks for saying so.
> I do get upset if I'm told that I'm not
> comfortable with my body because of the choices I've made with regards to it!)
Absolutely! When people presume to lay down the law about me, I
get _really_ annoyed, too. (I don't fully understand what prompted
you to add this comment, though. Did I, or someone else, write
something that upset you in this regard?)
All the best,
From: ddavidson@cbacc.cba.uga.edu (Dennis Davidson)
In article <1992Mar11.101705.15735@usl.edu> cs260218@ucs.usl.edu (Lusty*Yeller*Wench=) writes:
>some people have read my poems, and their first response is, "you must be in
>love." that is not the case at all. they ask me how i can write about such a
>thing as love with such sincerity and depth of feeling when i am not presently
>in that state. the answer is very simple: i am merely expressing an illusion,
>because love itself is an illusion. the illusion is that the height, breadth,
>and depth of what love really is is contained in a four-letter word. the
>reality of love is joy, pain, agony, ecstacy, hope, despair - the whole range
>of human emotion and experience. some people fall in love with love, and then
>are shattered when whole periods of their life turn to ashes. that is because
>they followed an illusion rather than followed the call of their heart and
>mind. real love is not to be pondered, dreamed, fantasized, or worshipped;
>rather it is to be felt and experienced.
>marisstella
marisstella, I believe you hit the nail on the head - I agree with you what
love is.
From: mlb@cisco.com (Marcia Bednarcyk)
Subject: Re: What is love really about
In article <1992Mar31.145808.1@acad3.alaska.edu>, fsmlw1@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
|> So no matter what anyone else tells you... Love sucks. You don't want it and
|> the way I look at it... Love is just a temporary break from the general
|> depression of life. Because nothing lasts forever and we both know hearts can
|> change...
This is why love may not be the most important thing in a lasting relationship;
commitment and trust and a desire to share a life together are really what
keeps things going long term. Love is the frosting on the cake: it's lovely
and it tastes good and keeps the cake from drying out, but it's not the cake
itself.
Marcia Bednarcyk ADDRESS: mlb@cisco.com
Being Attractive
From: snyder@mars.cis.udel.edu (Stephanie Snyder)
In article <1992Jan14.050058.27944rfelix@netcom.COM> rfelix@netcom.COM (Robbie Felix) writes:
>I think it is very sad that many people are equating "spark" with
>physical attractiveness.
>
>I have had a lot more sparks for men who were ABSOLUTELY NOT the GQ
>kind of guy than for ones who were.
>
>The things that create sparks for me are primarily tied with a man's
>ability to make me feel that he really *likes* me. I like someone
>I can really talk to, someone who will listen, share themselves,etc,
>without giving me the feeling there has to be something more for him
>in order to make it "worthwhile". I like men who are thoughtful, kind,
>patient.
>
>Men like this *become* better-looking to me the longer I hang out with
>them.
>
>Only an opinion, but you nice guys should know I am not the only woman
>who feels this way,
I think I'll add in my vote as another woman who shares this opinion.
I suppose that this will also tie into the "nice guy" thread. My
SO and I actually dated very casually my freshman year -- worked on
projects together, sometimes grabbed something to eat, etc -- until
he lost my number over the summer. We saw each other a lot
over the next few years, and remained friends (we had a lot of classes
together, and would go out in the same group). I always knew that
he still liked me because he would ask me to dance, and offer me rides
home from the bar, etc. Somehow I thought he was just TOO nice -- there
were no sparks, etc. I also was involved with someone else and determined
to remain faithful. After my other relationship broke up of its own
steam, I started to think about this guy. We'd been friends for so long
that I knew him well, and begun to wonder if there might be something
there. By the way, during this four years (freshman-senior) he
definitely wasn't pining away for me -- he dated many other people.
We were about to graduate (within two weeks) so I knew I had to do
something -- although he now says he would have asked me out before
graduation. One sunny spring afternoon, I went to his apartment and
I "kidnapped" him (he was a very willing "victim"), and we went up
to the mountains to a place with a great view. We talked, we went
back and ordered pizza, we went out with our group of friends that
night (they were rather surprised at the sudden change -- and very
happy).
Anyway, isn't it strange how everyone always wants to tell their
story? Sorry for probably boring everyone. Now, to tie it all
together, it took maturity and many mistakes to figure out that
the guy who was "too nice" is actually the best thing that could
ever happen. Now, he's not too nice in that he gives me everything
I want (boy, does that get boring) -- he is definitely his own
person, but he would never treat me with disrespect or dismiss
my ideas and make me feel badly about myself (I've been through
that, too). Thus I think that it takes a mature woman, who knows
herself and appreciates herself to feel that she deserves a "nice
guy."
This also makes a case for sparks not being necessary for a terrific
relationship. We were friends for years with no sparks. Sparks
can DEVELOP along with the relationship. Also, I didn't find
my SO all that attractive when we started going out. Nice looking,
yes, not unattractive, but not incredibly handsome. Now, when
I look at his picture, each time I find him more attractive.
There, sorry this is so long, I've been reading for so long, but
have never posted, I suppose that I put most of my ideas in one
post.
S
From: diana@wetware.com (CatWoman )
petitc@rpi.edu writes:
] Only problem is this: How can you be totally self-reliant,
] yet at the same time be willing to give so much of yourself?
It is only by being self-reliant that you will be able to give...
otherwise - you will only be able to take.
Specific example - if you are able to cook and feed yourself,
you are able to offer to make dinner for another person. If
you are NOT able to feed yourself (and I'm meaning even being
able to heat up something in a microwave), then you can only
wait until someone else offers to make YOU dinner. You can't
offer to give them dinner.
Same with your own mental well-being. If you are able to
keep yourself occupied, entertained, happy, whatever - you
will be able to offer your strength and peace of mind to
another person. If you rely on THEM for your strength,
etc., you will have nothing to offer them in return.
Nobody is able to be fully self-containted 100% of the
time - you need to be able to 'go crazy on' someone at
times - but they won't be there for you if you can't be
there for them as well.
Diana
From: partee@iastate.edu ()
>i have a personal definition of what 'romantic' is. it doesn't include
>expensive dinners, roses or even dancing with me in public (not that
>i don't like those things mind you :) romance to me is mainly
>talking, listening, and paying attention to the little things in
>life. if a man can talk to me, tell me how he feels, what he
>wants or even what his opinion is about George Bush, i find him very
>romantic. if he listens to me, and actually *pays attention*, that is
>very romantic. i once BRIEFLY mentioned the fact that i loved mixed nuts
>without peanuts to the man who i am currently dating, and the next time
>i saw him, guess what he had! i still remember that and i still am
>amazed that he *listened*! or for my birthday, he searched high and
>low for a Cezanne calendar because he knew Cezanne is my favourite artist.
>he didn't find one :( but the fact that he THOUGHT about me is romantic,
>in fact, any evidence at all that he thinks about me when i'm not around
>is VERY romantic.
>what i find *really* romantic, though, is a man who pays attention
>to the little things in life, who realizes that its the little things
>that can make you happy and waiting to win the lottery just
>ain't gonna do it. that's why i find things like sunsets, long walks,
>dogs, holding hands, reading the paper together, tickle wars, learning
>something new, real mashed potatoes ...(this list goes on and on)
>sooo romantic. if a guy can appreciate things like this, you've got me
>hooked.
>laurie
Sorry for reposting the whole article, but this is, by far, the best posting
I have ever seen on this group. (And there have been some good ones!) This
one, though, made me breathe a very deep sigh. I agree with you 100%, Laurie!
(Although let's not forget the smell of early morning air on the summit of
a mountain.) I can't gush enough about how this article really struck a
chord inside of me! It was very appreciated. Ok, ok, enough from me.
*sigh*
Back to my lurking,
Jonathan
From: bushmanangel@bvc.edu
Subject: Re: Qualities women like and don't like
In article <1992Mar13.150734.25335@engage.pko.dec.com>, 274-0106@mcimail.com
(Paul J. Wilczynski) writes:
>
> Being terrible at keeping track of who wrote things, someone recently
> noted that Nice Guys should find out what qualities women like, what
> they don't like, and how that compares to your personal qualities.
>
> Well, speaking as a man, I'd be glad to tell you at least some of the
> things women like ...
>
> -- Being treated like human beings, not sex objects or objects
> of worship.
>
> -- A man who smiles, who demonstrates self-assurance and
> confidence.
>
> -- A man who appears to have a purpose in his life besides the woman
>
> -- A gentleman (but some would say this can be carried too far. Opening
> a door is fine if you're in a natural position to do so. Insisting
> that she wait while you put down all the boxes you're carrying so that
> you open the door for her is not.)
>
> -- A man who has an ability to make decisions. (That is,
> try not to get into ping-pong matches about which movie to see ("oh
> no, what would *you* like to see? ...") If she tells you she wants
> you to decide, believe her and do it.
Bravo!!! You must know a few women. You seem to have this stuff down.
One thing I find paticularly annoying in men, though, is that when you go
out, men do one of the following:
1.) hang all over you until you can't breath
2.) take you to a bar, then talk to old friends without
introducing you to any of them or otherwise ignore you in public
"yoo-hoo, it's me, the one you asked to accompany you tonight"
3.) stare at every other woman in the place, whether the women
walk by or they have to actively seek them out
--I wholeheartedly admit this probably often goes both ways!!
> They don't like ...
>
> -- Being stood up on dates
>
> -- Complaining and whining
>
> -- Your insisting that you pay the bill all the time (well, some *do*...)
>
> -- Being put on a pedestal
>
> -- Being manhandled before they know your name
>
> -- Fawning
>
> That's a start, anyway.
>
> As several others have wisely noted, I think, this whole thing about
> "women only like jerks" is ludicrous. What do you think women do ... say
> to themselves "I think I'll find myself a nice solid jerk today"? Face
> it, nice guys ... a jerk is a guy who has the woman you want.
> Paul
This does not respond directly to anything you say, Paul, but it is on the
subject . . .
A good friend of mine once said of men:
"If they're good-looking, you have to date their ego, too,
If they're nice, they're boring as hell and that would be
just as hard to live with."
Any responses???? I though it was pretty funny, but not necessarily true.
Angela
From: jodar@girtab.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar)
Subject: Re: What Women Like
>> Qualities that Women Like in a Man: (?)
>>
>> -Nice voice
>> -Nice hands
>> -Broad shoulders
>> -Smells good
>> -Sense of humor
>> -Intelligence
>> -Sensitivity
>> -Strength (mental and physical)
>> -Romance
>> -Self-confidence
>> -Independence
>> -Capability (can take care of things)
>> -Loves her
>> -Protective
>What???? I beg to differ. I hate protective men!!!! I am as emotionally
>strong (if not stronger) than a man and I am also quite capable of caring
>for myself physically. Yes, we all like to be held and cuddled (protected-
>-if you have to call it that), but I hardly think it's a female thing.
:-) Then I should clarify what I mean by 'protective.'
I'm talking about that quality which causes a person to take a
stand against what they perceive to be a threat to somebody else.
It's the opposite of running away, leaving the other to fend for
themselves....
As an example, if somebody pulled a gun on us, I'd try to
distract them so that they were paying more attention to me than
you. On the other hand, if you were a third Dan black belt and
some unarmed guy is bothering you, I'd just sit back and
watch the show.... :-) The difference? Perceived threat.
Also, it doesn't matter if the one being 'protected' is male or
female....
>Also, please explain "-Capability (can take care of things)." Women don't
>like vagueness. (just kidding)
:-) 'Capability'... If you ask them to do something, they'll
find a way to do it. Opposite of 'Incompetent' and 'Clueless.'
One thing that's very important that I didn't put down was:
-RESPECTS her
>> Qualities Women Don't Like in a Man: (?)
>>
>> -Whining
>> -Wishy-washy
>> -High, squeeky voice
>> -Stinky/Dirty
>> -Callousness
>> -Cynicism
>> -Vindictiveness
>> -Apathy
>> -Arrogance
>> -Selfishness
>> -Weakness (mental and physical)
>> -Incompetence
>> -Egocentrism
>> -Dependency
>> -Possessiveness
>I think the "protective" quality borders on possessive--unless we are
>defining the two differently.
My interpretation of Posessiveness is the 'Hands off, that's my
woman' kind of garbage. In other words, treating her like an
object. In any case, you don't need another Daddy in your
life. I'd put that under the negative heading of
-Smothering
>I would also add inability to form an
>opinion to the latter list. It relates to being wishy-washy, but contains
>one inherent rule: the inability to form an opinion types regularly
>respond with "I don't know, I never really thought about it."
Okay,
-Indifference (...maybe? Might be a combo of Wishy-washy and
Apathetic...)
:-)
Well, that's one item... Got any more?
-Nick
From: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: What Women Like (was Re: Nice Guys -- Get a Clue)
>I suppose I could take a stab at it...
>
>Qualities that Women Like in a Man: (?)
>
>-Nice voice
One with a deep timbre, yes.
>-Nice hands
Yes.
>-Broad shoulders
Yes. Narrow hips, too.
>-Smells good
Not necessarily. I find the smell of a man's sweat sexy (but I realise sex is
no longer acceptable to this group).
>-Sense of humor
This should be FIRST! I fall for any man who can make me laugh.
>-Intelligence
Average, at least. Able to hold up his end of a conversation.
>-Sensitivity
Not really, thanks.
>-Strength (mental and physical)
YES!
>-Romance
This needs more definition. To a degree, yes, but only to a degree. Not
mushy, but warm. Can't really explain it.
>-Self-confidence
This goes without saying.
>-Independence
But not so independent that he doesn't need me...
>-Capability (can take care of things)
I like a man who can fix my car. So there.
>-Loves her
A man with a twinkle in his eye is irresistable!
>-Protective
This depends on the woman. I would love someone to be protective of me, but so
far, only my dad filled this requirement. I think protectiveness went out with
men opening doors.
> Qualities Women Don't Like in a Man: (?)
> -Whining
> -Wishy-washy
> -High, squeeky voice
> -Stinky/Dirty
> -Callousness
> -Cynicism
> -Vindictiveness
> -Apathy
> -Arrogance
> -Selfishness
> -Weakness (mental and physical)
> -Incompetence
> -Egocentrism
> -Dependency
> -Possessiveness
These are not qualities women don't like in men; these are qualities that no
one of either sex finds attractive in ANYONE. Sheesh.
I heard somewhere that there is nothing so attractive to a man as a woman who's
in love with him (maybe even heard it here). I think it goes both ways.
I'd also like to add:
--Manners (obsolete, IMHO)
--Consideration
--Tenderness
--Reliability
>Well, how's that for a start? And additions are welcome....
I'll add them as I think of them.
Cheryl
>
>-Nick
From: oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: Re: What Women Like (was Re: Nice Guys -- Get a Clue)
In article <00957939.420E06C0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, oopcv@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:
>>
>>I suppose I could take a stab at it...
>>
>>Qualities that Women Like in a Man: (?)
AAAAAaaaaaaauuuuuugggggghhhhhhh!!!!
I forgot the most important one!
--KINDNESS
Cheryl