From: csbruce@ccnga.uwaterloo.ca (Craig Bruce)
Subject: Re: Lone Wolf
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:16:03 GMT
Message-ID: <Du2CEr.AL4@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Organization: University of Waterloo, Canada (eh!)
In article <4rebh7$67f@news.pc.centuryinter.net>,
Katherine Randolph Actually, I heard on some TV documentary that two thirds of the time, it
is the woman who takes the lead in initiating contact. Of course, she
doesn't do it directly; she uses subtle indirect signals of romantic
interest. The documentary said that they had recorded 52 distinct female
solicitation behavious, from observing 200 women.
They showed an example scenario, with a man and a woman in a bar,
strangers, each with their groups of friends, about 30 feet apart, but
noticing each other. The woman took the lead and sent out the following
signals:
At this point, the man got up and went over and talked to her. Even though
she took the lead, every one of the signals was safely ambiguous, so there
was little risk on her part. All that she wanted to do was to send the
critical number of signals to trigger the guy into action. He is the one
who takes the risk. After the guy goes up and talks to her, she still gets
to decide how to react. She can reject him on the spot with no loss of
face. Quite a scam, hey! ;-)
If you want a good indication that she is interested in you, look for some
of these signals. Of course, some women are so flirtatious that they send
out signals even if they aren't really interested. But, if you don't
receive any of these signals (or others like them), and given that you are
shy, then it's going to be a hard sell.
From: praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) In article <blah>csbruce@ccnga.uwaterloo.ca (Craig Bruce) writes:
That is mentioned in anthropology books as well as some PBS shows I've
seen. Women actually initiate the first 3 items according to Helen Fisher
in her book. The first being attraction and physical contact and I forgot
the 3rd. She also pointed out that guys tended to remember none of these
milestones; merely the ones that they did later. The women did remember
exactly what they had to do to get the guys attention!
A lot of male "I'm available" non-verbal communication is the same sort
of thing. Big hearty laughs; don't stir your drink with a small flick of
the wrist when you can get your whole body into the act. Take up space;
look important but not threatening.
Funny thing that. If you are in a position where you only get to pick
between the guys who you attract; isn't it better to attract a lot of guys?
I could swear that some of this has to go the other way; but too many women
keep posting that they would never react to an attractive guy; never show
any overt interest.
There are always many other ways to attract someone; rather than the
bar-room/stranger pickup. It is just that this one is pretty common for
humans and other animals.
One way that women have said that they meet men is thru their current
boyfriend. I can't think of how that would never ever work for shy people
or people in areas of study which effectively have no women. Even if you're
like me and you don't drink, don't like smokey environments and have no love
for physical bashing "sports"; then that gives you no way to relate to
ordinary guys. Kind of like the smalltalk syndrome. I'll wager that
plenty of guys keep their sanity thru their jock sports; being able to let
off steam and get away from all women. But the shy ones don't need any more
of that since they have it and the smalltalk in spades.
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) That's interesting. I'm seeing two views here:
1) 90210 portrays effective means for men to interact sexually with
women. You know what? Both views are correct.
I wouldn't recommend watching TV shows as a guide to reality, but I
personally have done a lot of observation of people in life. I saw a lot of
stuff that literally turned my stomach. It took me a long time before I was
able to suppress my gorge enough to try it. When I was finally able to do
so, I found it highly effective.
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) In article <31FEC760.7BB2@flash.net>, Scott <redjan@flash.net> wrote:
It all depends on what you want. If you do this, don't be surprised if
what you get are female friends who don't want anything romantic because
they don't want to ruin the friendship.
In my experience, the most effective and safest strategy goes something
like this:
1) Flirt like hell immediately after meeting the person. Start within
the first five seconds.
2) After a couple of hours, or on the second meeting, back off on the
flirtation and work on a friendship.
3) If that goes well, rekindle the flirtation.
Most people start with step 2, and that's usually a mistake in my
experience.
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) In article <322b0d9f.88539@NEWS.SUPERLINK.NET>, cavalama@superlink.net
(Cavalamar the Lost) wrote:
I haven't seen anything more detailed, unfortunately. There are some
things I have noticed, though:
Good signs: Bad signs: Maybe you could describe the kind of failure that you run into. At what
point does the process, as you envision it, break down?
Probably you can pick up on it, but you're just overcautious.
Relax. You've made enormous progress. You probably should consider
changing your long name.
In terms of the formation of long-term relationships, it's far better to
get false negatives than false positives.
Article 136095 of alt.romance: On 7 Oct 1996 18:38:21 GMT, "Debora C. Carter" <dccarter@nowhere.org>
wrote:
'scuse me for interrupting...
Sounds like a double-edged sword. Unfortunately, some people are inept
in the ways of romance. Others are also direct by nature. Would you
suggest that these people be themselves? I don't mean that to
confrontational, it's an honest question.
I agree with the "showing" part wholeheartedly. What I don't understand
is that since there's obviously a breakdown in communication (He doesn't
know what you want, and you don't know why he won't "show" you and/or stop
talking about his feelings), why not discuss it?
There's definitely such a thing as "too much, too soon", but a guy's
going to have to say something SOMETIME.
I think I understand where you're coming from. I just have to feel sorry
for the guy because he's losing a race he doesn't even know he's in.
LJBF can mean quite a few things. While I'm sure it's possible that it
can mean what you said (as it does for you in your situation), I think it
would be very detrimental for men as a whole to cling to that belief. I
have visions of poor guys slamming their heads into the same brick wall over
and over because they think "All I have to do is charm her". Of course this
works with the genders reversed as well ( I would think).
I wonder what would happen if you told you friend "Let's just be friends
while you figure out how to charm me again, as I work on forgetting how you
scared me off with your directness."
That would be pretty interesting, wouldn't it?
Lovers talk too ;)
mine might have been a penny.....
Article 136337 of alt.romance: In <53bimt$arb@newstand.syr.edu> "Debora C. Carter"
Perfect EXAMPLE of what unfortunately happens to men who are too
DIRECT...
No that's what YOU want; he has been QUITE direct in what he WANTS....
INDIRECT and subtle "game playing": is often the key in creating
chemistry. THIS IS what *men learn* and yet then some women will say be
direct and don't play games ...(that's why when women say this you can't
listen to them)
Yep if you blow the timing and the "cat is let out of the bag" its much
harder to get back where you were before..
Again the chemistry and "indirectness" must be done right its hard to get
back into the game later unfotunately...
Good Analysis on why being straightforward and Direct is NOT in your
interest and being indirect IS ....(at least when dealing with women)
Article 136342 of alt.romance: I actually would prefer if a guy came out and told me if he had feelings
for me. I'm actually pretty poor at picking up signals. And i have a lot of
guys for friends. But unless they came out and told me they'd like to be
more than friends, I would probably never know.
Guess I'm just a little slow on the hints...
Article 136457 of alt.romance: In article <53jj8g$ho3@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, %%spam repellent: remove this
prefix%%kennel@msr.epm.ornl.gov wrote:
Yeah, this is usually true.
Don't be too hard on Debora. There are few enough women who are willing
to be even a little bit honest about this. You may not like the way human
sexuality works, but it isn't politic to try to shame people into lying
about it.
From: Matthew <matthew@inlink.com> Darla wrote:
Yes. The signals consist of the inability to speak correctly, saying
stupid things when the words DO come out, looking WAY uncomfortable and
then -- we do it all over again for the sake of the feelings we get
being around you. Sounds rather masochistic, I know, but...you asked.
Also, I tend to look at women I like in the eyes more. I wish there
really were some other signals that were more down-to-earth, but I think
it's really a hit-and-miss thing for us. Maybe others will respond more
favorably.
From: Darla J <DarlaJ@mindlink.bc.ca> jackalope.@greatbasin.net (Mike Long) wrote:
I'll keep an eye out for creepy lurkers. ;)
It truly saddens me that there are people on this earth that would even
think of saying anything so negative & cruel to someone who has risked
vulnerability and reached out to them. I'll tell you right now, she wasn't
good enough for you.
Hmmmm... what about the "reverse concept" that shy guys will only talk to
women they're _not_ interested in? Possibly if I knew the _degree_ of
shyness (in advance), he might be easier to read. I like your idea of
asking around about the guy's shyness habits. It's a relatively innocuous
question that even an aquaintance could answer.
This is good. I can work with this.
If she's shy, she'll make herself "annoyingly visible", even though she
may not say anything (deja vu). Once initial contact is made, the standard
signals are - standing/sitting closer than "usual"; blushing; eye contact
(or embarrassed, averted eyes); touching your arm (if she touches your chest
in _any_ way, you can have no doubt of her interest); a warm smile; hanging
around you; and, of course, flirting (innuendo, double entendres, etc.). If
you can swing it, the only way that has ever really worked for me is to
"open" yourself and try to feel her energy. This consists of being within 6
feet of her, in a situation where neither of you are talking (listening to
someone else talk, for example) and then concentrate on her presence (not on
what you think she's thinking about you). You should feel warmth around
your chest, if she's also thinking of you. Sounds weird, but it's super
cool when it works.
From: Marc Meunier <meunier@ionline.net> I'll explain this a bit further... women are very sensitive to a guy's
non-verbal signals; they don't want to be _told_ things, they want to be
_shown_. They don't want you to say you like them, they want you to flirt
with them and touch them and put your arm around them, etc. So what happens
is, if you're simply friendly with someone for months, then all of a sudden
admit that you've secretly wanted to go out with them all this time, they'll
think you're mental. Seriously. (unless they had a BF or some other
exception)
Also, a lot of shy people think that they have to get to know someone for
a while before asking them out. The opposite is actually true - you should
get their phone # either the first time you meet her or soon after, and ask
to spend time with her soon after meeting as well. This way it keeps them
curious enough to want to spend more time with you. If you wait for a few
months, they'll think "what a dull guy, he doesn't flirt or anything" and
then turn you down when you do ask.
Yup. Freakishly weird, ain't it?
Maybe... you don't have to use those exact words, you can say "Would you
like to go to X with me on Friday?" or "Let's go to X on Friday!"
I think for me, when I'm in my "neutral" mode my face goes into a kind of
frown, though I'm not down or anything... Others look down or hunch over,
or just have no light in their eyes.
>HDXQ27A@prodigy.com (Terry Aucoin) wrote:
>> I know " Girls want you to make the first move" my friends tell me, but
>>how do you know for sure they want to talk to you is there a certain sign
>>to look for????
> Hi, I thought you might want a woman's perspective so here goes.
>First, the reason women want you to make the first move is because its a
>risk, and its flattering to women that you're willing to take it. The
>most impressive thing to women is a man who is comfortable enough with
>himself to be able to take a risk and still be okay if rejected.
Keep on Hackin'!
-Craig Bruce
csbruce@ccnga.uwaterloo.ca
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there." -- Will Rogers
Subject: Re: Lone Wolf
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:57:16 GMT
Message-ID: <Du2JvG.74t@novice.uwaterloo.ca>
Organization: University of Waterloo
>Actually, I heard on some TV documentary that two thirds of the time, it is
>the woman who takes the lead in initiating contact. Of course, she doesn't
>do it directly; she uses subtle indirect signals of romantic interest. The
>1. Laugh: audible laugh, draws attention to herself.
>If you want a good indication that she is interested in you, look for some
>of these signals. Of course, some women are so flirtatious that they send
>out signals even if they aren't really interested. But, if you don't
Eric Praetzel, http://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel
Subject: Re: Who knows how to swing?
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:31:15 -0600
Message-ID: <pepke-0907961131150001@pepkemac.scri.fsu.edu>
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
2) I hate that show; it makes me want to vomit.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
Subject: Re: asked someone out; crash+burn
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 10:27:11 -0600
Message-ID: <pepke-0108961027110001@pepkemac.scri.fsu.edu>
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
> 1) Get to know women as friends. I've had only guy friends my whole life.
> Why not get to know someone first before trying to rush things? After all,
> you're getting all worked over a glance, or a few nice hellos. For all you
> know, she could be Lizzie Borden. I've heard that lasting relationships are
> based on friendships. If you can't be friends with a woman, how can you be
> more? I don't know, I don't have the experience here. I've also heard that
> couples who have a similar sense of humor last longer.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
Subject: Re: Body language/ signals/ clues for the cluless
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:24:05 -0600
Message-ID: <pepke-0409961324050001@pepkemac.scri.fsu.edu>
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
> I've read a couple of the reccommended books (namely "Guerrila Dating
> tactics" and "Body Language" and I was wondering if there are any
> books that go into more detail on the flirting behavior thing ("Body
> language" seems to have some good stuff, but dosen't go into depth on
> this aspect, and was written way back in 1970. By now perhaps
> something more detailed has shown up?)
Meeting your eyes and then looking downward, touching the ear or
earlobe, playing with the hair, stroking the thigh or a glass.
Meeting your eyes and then looking to the side, touching the nose, tossing
the hair, holding hard on to something.
> I've been trying to pay attention, and notice all the little "clues"
> that people give out, but have still seem to run into dismal failure
> when I try to approach a woman. Obviously there is something major
> that I am missing.
> However, when at these functions, I feel like I can't get the
> time of day from anyone. It is really frustrating to hear afterwards
> that there were oportunities slipping by that I was unaware of. They
> seem to talk *about* me, never *to* me. I need to know how to pick up
> on this when it is happening.
> However, the big
> problem here is that they were in fact one night stands. Women who
> never tried to get to know me, and which I didn't have much contact
> with afterwards.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
From: blj@clark.net (Barry Johnson)
Subject: Re: Another whiny story from a LJBF-ee...
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:08:44 GMT
Message-ID: <3259c19e.3349628@news.clark.net>
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc.
>As someone who is currently struggling with a friendship vs
>something-more situation, let me response from a female p.o.v.-
>
>lundy@bnr.ca (Steve Lundy) wrote:
>
>>Offering her something positive is a pretty vague term. It
>>could mean several things, but mostly it means the man has to
>>offer the woman she either could like or enjoy. It's about
>>proving that you are worth her attention.
>
>How about just being yourself???
>>The part I have to take exception to is the part about being
>>direct. NEVER, in the beginning, EVER be direct. If you come
>>straight out and tell the woman your feelings BEFORE she has
>>a chance to discover her attraction to you, she will run.
>
>OK here's my perspective. I met this guy about 2 months ago. We hit it
>off very very well in a friendly way. He bought me a sweet and
>thoughtful friendly gift after I had minor surgery. It was friendly
>but I was very charmed by it. We talked all the time and had fun.
>Finally he said he thought he we could be more than friends maybe.
>At the time he said that, I was pretty charmed by him and spoke my
>mind: I didn't know if we could or not but I was willing to keep an
>open mind. I honestly *didn't know* him well enough to say yes or no.
>I probably made a mistake by responding verbally..but what could I do?
>I felt put on the spot.
>
>Unfortunately he has not stopped talking about his feelings for me, and
>my silence on this issue has not gotten the message across that it's
>getting harder for me to be charmed by him when all he does is talk
>about his feelings for me. At this point I'm still interested in him
>but the interest level is much less than it was and this has happened
>quite suddenly. I just wish he would stop talking about his feelings
>for me. For one thing I don't think he knows me well enough for them
>to be real. For another thing his talk is getting in the way of my
>getting to know him better.
>
>However unlike many people I do not see the situation as unsalvageable.
>Obviously there was something I found charming about him or else I
>wouldn't have felt that way after knowing him for 2 months. I am trying
>hard to be patient and to wait until he cools down. I have no other
>guys waiting in the wings, but I am not sure I want to be this guy's
>girlfriend right now because I think he needs a friend more than a
>girlfriend.
>
>It's very frustrating to read this newsgroup and see so many guys acting
>like it's all the woman's fault if they get LJBF'd. Why do you guys
>insist on telling the woman your feelings. How about showing them
>(within reason!) It's obviously a question of impatience rather than
>not knowing how. The guy I know really charmed me by his thoughtful
>gift and not a "romantic" word was spoken. People fall in love, they
>do not discuss things and decide they are in love.
>To me it seems kind of a selfish impulse (though I do not blame people
>with inexperience) to think you can just circumvent action through
>words, trying to control
>the situation by putting the woman on the spot. That's what it
>*feels* like anyway, even if you don't mean it that way.
>>Flirtation, Suduction, and even Romance are all about
>>finding alternate ways of expressing your interest and feelings.
>>If it wasn't necessary, we wouldn't do it. Just as in the
>>act of sex itself, it takes women longer to build up the passion,
>>it takes more consideration and subtle infulences to sway a
>>woman's emotions into a romantic relationship, than saying
>>"Hey, I'm in love with you. Let's get together."
>
>Thank you for understanding! However this works both ways, this is not
>some special "woman" thing. It only seems that way because men are
>traditionally the more forward. It can work both ways.
>
>>That means, if there is a woman that you are interested in,
>>you have to use the INDIRECT methods of flirtation, suduction
>>and romance in order to win her feelings. (ie. create chemistry)
>
>Well, now I am in a position where I might seem like I am going back
>on my "word" (although the only signal I thought I gave was..."OK...
>continue trying to impress me and we'll see.") I think this guy is
>doing this because he's inexperienced and maybe insecure, but it
>doesn't turn me completely off him as a potential love interest. But
>the emphasis is now decidedly on POTENTIAL - I just have
>lost some of the interest I had, why, I don't know, he's still a
>wonderful person...but now I think he's going to have to work harder
>to charm me once again.
>I'll keep an open mind, but it's going to
>be somewhat harder now. The process has been derailed. I don't
>believe, as so many do, that there is *no* hope now, but the ball is
>in *his* court not mine. I don't think the charm can never be
>rekindled, but I'm not going to wait and hope...if it does, I'll let
>myself be pleasantly surprised and I will try to forget this stage
>of our relationship.
>
>I feel kind of sad because I was having
>fun, now the fun is all over at least for the time being. I still
>care for the guy, but I feel the need to spend some time away from
>him right now...I feel it would be good for him as well as me...maybe in
>the future we'll see.
>
>Additional thought--- I think some men hate the idea of LJBF because
>they always assume the woman really wants to run off and look for
>someone else and that this is just a nice lie the woman is telling
>them. Did it ever occur to you that maybe she just doesn't want to
>date *anybody*. It happens. Would you rather have the woman scream,
>"No, I hate you, go away and never bother me again?" Why is LJBF
>considered the kiss of death. Sometimes it just means, "Let's just be
>friends while you figure out how to charm me again, as I work on
>forgetting how you scared me off with your directness."
>Friends talk, but lovers do.
>just my .02
Life's a bitch named Monogamy.
You only get one..
--Ras Kass, "Reelishymn"
blj@clark.net
From: thomasws@ix.netcom.com (thom95 )
Subject: Re: Another whiny story from a LJBF-ee.
(Why guys become GAME PLAYERS)
Date: 10 Oct 1996 03:49:54 GMT
Message-ID: <53hrp2$69c@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
>As someone who is currently struggling with a friendship vs
>something-more situation, let me response from a female p.o.v.-
>[...]
>about his feelings for me. At this point I'm still interested in him
>but the interest level is much less than it was and this has happened
>quite suddenly.
>Obviously there was something I found charming about him or else I
>wouldn't have felt that way after knowing him for 2 months. I am trying
>hard to be patient and to wait until he cools down. I have no other
>guys waiting in the wings, but I am not sure I want to be this guy's
>girlfriend right now because I think he needs a friend more than a
>girlfriend.
>It's very frustrating to read this newsgroup and see so many guys acting
>like it's all the woman's fault if they get LJBF'd. Why do you guys
>insist on telling the woman your feelings.
>I'll keep an open mind, but it's going to
>be somewhat harder now. The process has been derailed. I don't
>believe, as so many do, that there is *no* hope now, but the ball is
>in *his* court not mine.
>I don't think the charm can never be
>rekindled, but I'm not going to wait and hope...
>I feel kind of sad because I was having
>fun, now the fun is all over at least for the time being. I still
>care for the guy, but I feel the need to spend some time away from
>him right now...I feel it would be good for him as well as me...maybe in
>the future we'll see.
From: memslie@midway.uchicago.edu (Maei)
Subject: Re: Another whiny story from a LJBF-ee.
(Why guys become GAME PLAYERS)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 04:22:16 GMT
Message-ID: <memslie-0910962322160001@broadview-52.rh.uchicago.edu>
Organization: University of Chicago
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Re: Another whiny story from a LJBF-ee.
(Why guys become GAME PLAYERS)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:20:20 -0600
Message-ID: <pepke-1010961720200001@pepkemac.scri.fsu.edu>
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
> So if he pretended that you really didn't matter to him, you'd like
> him better?
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
Subject: Re: questions
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:38:01 -0600
Message-ID: <327802F8.6E5B@inlink.com>
Organization: InLink
> I just had a thought that you guys have probably known for ages, but it just
> occurred to me... since a shy guy would (presumably) prefer to be approached
> than to do the approaching themselves... Do you give out signals to women to
> approach you? What are they? I'm dying to know.
Matthew
Subject: Re: questions
Date: 31 Oct 1996 09:08:24 GMT
Message-ID: <559qa8$fdq@fountain.mindlink.net>
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
>In article <556r4e$2n9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mattlosang@aol.com
>(Mattlosang) wrote:
>>
>> An excellent question. Usually we kind of "hang around" the woman,
>> talking to them every once and a while, trying not to seem too pushy but
>> at the same time trying to get noticed. This almost never works -- you
>> can see that this makes us look like creeps.
>> Unfortunately, us shy guys have difficulty going further. Usually it's
>> either a) obvious after a while that the woman doesn't like me very much
>> --i.e she basically avoids me, or b) she is somewhat friendly but its
>> basically impossible to tell if she would ever go on a date with me. So I
>> never ask. By the way, the times I have asked I've gotten shot down very
>> quickly (i.e. "why did you ever think I was interested in you?")
>Boy, Matt is right on here....
>
>The easiest way to tell is if you know a little about the guy, or know
>someone who knows him. If you are armed with the knowledge that he is shy.
>Then you're set. If he goes to the trouble to talk to you - he's
>interested - period. Most shy guys I've ever come across are not much for
>idle conversation. They would rather just say nothing at all. Hence the
>misconception that a guy is "stuck-up" when he is really just too shy to
>attempt a conversation.
>Personally, I tend to be almost annoyingly visible, even though I might
>not say much. If you are wondering why that quiet guy seems to be around
>every time you look over your shoulder - strike up a conversation with
>him, because he's interested. I will occasionally try the painful process
>of striking up a conversation. If I get short responses that aren't
>conducive to a "real" conversation, I tend to give up rather quickly.
>Now would you be so kind as to tell me how to tell when a girl is
>interested? I tend to live my world in the (b) section that Matt talked
>about. As I stated in another thread, I am body-language impaired.
Darla
Subject: Re: The cutest girl in the world...
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 14:19:15 -0800
Message-ID: <327D1A63.3DD3@ionline.net>
Organization: Unitel
> > What to say:
> >
> > - "I'm thinking of going to X on Friday, wanna come?"
> > Alternate (If the above is too difficult): "My friends and I are
> > going to X on Friday, wanna come?"
> >
> > *** A relaxed, almost nonchalant attitude is crucial at this point. You
> > do want to convey the fact that you like her, but nonverbally. Smile and
> > make eye contact as you do the asking.
>
> So THAT'S what I'm doing wrong?? You mean you're not supposed to stand
> there: palms sweating, hands shaking, voice quivering, and say, "I've been
> trying to get up the courage to do this for months. Would you like to go
> out with me?"
>
> You mean that doesn't work? No wonder I've had one yes and about 10 no's
> in my life. :)
> Come to think of it, the one yes I got was probably the most non-chalant I
> have ever been. I wish I could remember how I did it.
> One question. Saying you are "going to X friday night, wanna come?" Won't
> that turn a lady off, wondering why you are going someplace alone?
> By reading these posts, and doing a little pondering, I'm discovering that
> my shyness affects only one part of my life: initiating contact and
> conversation. On the rare times I have been able to do it, there is no
> shyness, and people seem to like being around me. But when I can't do it,
> I have to believe that I am giving off vibes that say, "I don't know what
> to say, so don't try to start a conversation with me."
>
> How about it? Anybody out there believe that shy folks give off a kind of
> "avoidant" energy, that pushes others away without either party realizing
> it?