[...]
Well, let's start doing that then. Let's create a list of BEHAVIORS that may help cure or at least lessen shyness, regardless of which theory is right on it's origins. So, let's creat behaviors that "Alpha" type people supposedly have, or a list of things that I would call social skills. First, let's identify the skills.(Or Primary Greek Traits?)
Please, add more. My brain's running out. If we can Identify enough of them, we can then try and see how to practice them.(I understand that this method is truly difficult, and many will want to say,"either you know it, or you don't." But, social skills are LEARNED skills!!!!!(even the body language. It can vary from culture to culture.) So, if we can identify a good number of the social skills, perhaps we can build exercizes/rating systems for them. Perhaps being the key word.)
Next, let's try and create a rating system. How does the subjective 1..10 system sound? Or, should we try and quantify a more objective system? (Personally, I think a truly objective system would be hard to define, at best. Impossible at worst.)
Then, let's try to create a system to improve each of the skills we identify. That's the real goal. To figure out what the social skills are, be able to rate our social skill level, and be able to improve the social skills that we are having trouble with. I personally am tired of hearing my extraverted frineds say,"You just know." Since, these are learned behaviors, not instinctual, there has got to be a way to learn them!
I say we create a seperate thread, with why's and theories and such not allowed, simply identifying the social skills(Alpha tendancies?) Rating ourselves in these tendancies, and creating possible excercizes/ideologies about the skills. who knows... with all of the people we have in this newsgroup, we're bound to be able to identify a good portion of them, and we're also probably going to be able to hypothesize a few ways to improve certain skills. If we can get our understanding and use of the social skills down to a better level, then perhaps that alone will help us overcome shyness.
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Imran H Peerbhai |http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~peerbhai | |peerbhai@student.umass.edu |2016 Washington, 6-2200 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1.)Projection--The ability to project an image about yourself.(i.e smart.)
Body language, Body language, Body language... the unfortunate thing about Body Language is it tends to be an unconscious thing, you can't go "I'm going to project confidence now!"
> 2.)Appearence--The ability to Appear to belong to a certain > socio-economic class.
You can influence this to a certain extent by the clothes you wear, your hair and grooming, etc. But you can't take this all the way (remember Common People by Pulp)
> 3.)forwardness--The ability to initiate conversations.
You can either be direct -> "Hi, how's it going!" or sneaky:
"Excuse me, could I borrow some change?"
"Got a cigarette?"
[bump into someone] "Oh, I'm sorry!"
For the sneaky way you just need some excuse to be speaking to the person...
> 4.)conversation--The ability to maintain prolonged speech with an individual.
Say whatever comes to mind and don't worry about whether it will go down well or not. Ask questions to get the other person involved. Relate funny stories about yourself to develop rapport. DON'T LOOK BORED OR ANXIOUS.
> 5.)Body language--The ability to physically signal emotions, in a > socially acceptable way.
Body Language comes as a natural extension of what you're feeling, you can't really control it. You have to change how you feel...
> 6.)flirting--The ability to use body languge and conversation to signal > romantic interest.
Touches are important. Even a simple touch on the shoulder shows that you at least like someone as a friend. Teasing and humour are extremely important. Compliments are important too.
> 7.)Closing--The ability to end the conversation, with some objective in > mind(Like a salesperson closing a deal.)
"I gotta go, bye!" usually works...
> 8.)Rapport--The ability to keep a conversation interesting.
Mirroring works wonders for rapport. In other words, match the other person's rate of speech, tone and body language (to a certain extent).
> 9.)listening--The ability to injest information or data provided by > someone else, in an aural format.
do a lot of "Mmh hmm..." and "I understand." Nod often. Ask questions that prompt the person to continue or go into more detail, "You must have been so embarrassed!"
> 10.)Understanding Body Language--The ability to understand physical > signals sent by others, signalling their emotional state.
Body Language is a subconscious function, so always trust your gut feeling.
> 11.)Persuasion--The ability to influence the thinking of another.
There's a large section on this on my new web page which should be up in a day or two.
> 12.)Deception--The ability to lie.
Convince yourself that the lie is the truth.
> 13.)Perception--The ability to understand the real intent of > communication by another.
Again, body language and gut feelings. If a person's body language seems incongruent with what they're saying, you know something's wrong.
> 14.)Suggestion--The ability to start a new, unrelated mode of thinking in > another.
?
Imran Peerbhai wrote:
> Here is my attempt to identify the social skills. Please add more. > Or, even subdivide the ones into smaller chunks. The more the better. > > Please, let's not discuss the why's of social behavior, status, alpha > tendencies, etc.. Here, let's try and keep this particular thread heading > in a direction of identifying, rating, and then learning the social skills.
If those (14) items are 'social skills' I will be glad - quite glad to remina asocial. I mean -look at some of them:
"ability to project a certain image" --- i.e. be a temporary fake, to dupe a fellow human into thinking we are something we are not.
"ability to appear to belong to a certain social class" - more fakery.
"ability to maintain prolonged speech" - artificial!
I mean 'maintain prolonged speech'? This is absurd. What about the role of pauses and prolonged silences? The implication seems to be that one is obliged to be able to sustain some sort of marathon-like conversatinal capabilities - with no pauses allowed.
The other entries all admit of a similar fundamental flaw - in trying to get the presumed 'social deficient' to adopt fakery skills that will make him/her appear to be 'social'. Let me turn this on its head: why cannot society accept me - if I choose not to talk - go to parties, or adopt a fake fashion to project some (culturally-ordained) 'acceptable image'?
> We can use other topics to theorize. We can use other topics to critique > and remove, whatever.
We can use other topics as well - but we can't let or allow these to be accepted as 'engraved in stone' or to be the last word in defining social 'skills'. For me - for example, the paramount social skill - which ought to be promulgated - is development of genuine *empathy* for others. One is then capable of abiding (sincerely) by the golden rule: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I think anything above and beyond this is artificial dross.
> But, I just don't want to see this become a,"Well, > these are alpha tendancies, but why bother? We're never going to be good > enough to learn them. We're never going to get anyplace. Why should we > even want to? Then other's will see us for the horror that we are."
Well - as I have said in any number of previous posts - there is not an iota of evidence for any "alpha class", "alpha males", "alpha tendencies" or anything else. It is nothing but psychobabble and socio-flatus.
My problem with the alleged 'social skills' is nothing more or less than the fact that they fuel the development of the inauthentic or false self. This is the *last* thing the retiring or introverted temperament needs or wants. In reality s/he needs the *validation* of his or her own temperament by the larger society. And - if that is not forthcoming - have the intestinal fortitude to say 'So, be it' - go their own way and f*ck the rest of society and their extro-worshipping fools, lackeys and stooges. (Including all corporations that help project and sustain these *images*).
>I want this to be proactive, let's identify the skills, and let's learn them.
'Pro-active?' What's that? That sounds like 'corporate speak' - what those pinshirted, pin-brained imbeciles in their little cubiclized, drab worlds try to project on workers to give them the illusion they have free choice. It's like that other noxious buzzword 'empowerment' - which (to the worker) means no more than being able to decide what pen to use on a given day.
Once again - the central social skill that needs to be learned is empathy. All the other stuff - the 'projections', the 'imagery' and even the 'conversing in prolonged fashion' - are merely the violation and deformation of a personality in order to 'homogenize it' and arrive at an atrocity: the well-liked, "happy" and "socially-adjusted" mass man(or woman). No wonder this civilization is now in its finally decadent days - just as Rome was in 5th-6th century A.D.
In reading this post, I have a little different perspective than Daeron <stahlp@ix.netcom.com>.
I think it is about deciding what a person wants, looking at what you have to do to achieve that goal, and deciding if you want to put the time and effort into an idea that is required to make it a reality.
Daeron <stahlp@ix.netcom.com> is right about one thing, if a person is "faking" it, there is no point in doing these things.
On 11/3/96 1:52PM, in message <327D0603.1E17@ix.netcom.com>, Daeron
When someone doesn't know you, they make a judgement about you based on
your "uniform". If you dress and have the mannerisms of a hermit, people
will treat you as a hermit. Most will not take the time to get to know the
real you (and it is unlikely you will take the effort to let *every* person
that you meet know the real you), as the cost in time and personal effort
would be too great.(Not saying this is right)
If a person is choosing to wear a certain "uniform" and act a certain
way, why is that person "surprised" when society treats them accordingly?
If you want to be liked, and treated as a respected member of society, the
you have the choice of dressing and acting accordingly.
The confidence that you are as good as anyone else, capable of handling
the situation, and feel at ease in any group or "social class".
Being willing and able to take equal responsibilty in carrying on a
coversation. Not expecting the other person to start and maintain the
discussion.
If you understand what a society requires socially, and choose to ignore
it and go your own way, that is fine, but you also need to accept the
responsibility that comes with making those choices. If you choose to
isolate yourself by choosing not to talk, go to parties etc, then the
isolation, loneliness are what you wanted.
Then if you choose to not talk to other people, you are releasing them
from any expectations or obligations to talk with you. You want people to
ignore you as you have ignored them, and if that is *really* what you want,
why are you here???
Because, after all it is their fault, if it weren't for the "larger
society, extro-worshipping fools, lackeys and stooges, and (extro)
corporations, everything would be fine and we would be alone with ourselves.
that means evaluating our situation and our responsibility in that
situation, deciding what our options are, choosing a solution, and putting
the time and effort into making that idea a reality, as opposed to whining
about it being the everyone elses fault.
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.961103024731.29203A-100000@athens>, Rogerio
Fung <u1001353@email.sjsu.edu> wrote:
First of all, I think that you should congratulate yourself by at least
keeping the conversations going. This is the important part; the rest is
fine tuning.
To keep conversations from going stale like this, there are a few things
that you can do.
1) Ask open-ended questions, questions that cannot be answered with a
simple, short answer. To give a couple extreme examples, "What do you think
of Anselm's supposed ontological proof of the existence of God" is
open-ended, while "What size shoe do you wear" isn't.
2) Don't ask too many questions. Make listening noises or type listening
sentences.
3) Branch off conversations. Say, "That reminds me of something I heard
the other day" and go off onto a tangent. This makes the idea space richer.
[...]
The all-important eye contact is conspicuously missing from this list. I
think maintaining eye contact with someone that one feels uncomfortable or
uncertain about (because of shyness) is very important. I find it very hard
to do, unless somebody else initiates the conversation. Similarly (and this
relates to a previous thread), I maintain eye contact better with people I
perceive to be shy than with people who are clearly outgoing and confident.
Marc Meunier (meunier@ionline.net) wrote:
Yes, and no. Body language is not fully subconcious. Go out on a date,
and not like the other person. You'ld be surprised at how conciously you
signal dissinterest. You'll even later say something like, "Geeze. I was
doing everything to make sure she knew I didn't like her couldn't she get
it???"
And, just like it can be projected conciously, it can be understood as
such. Go out, read a book on it, and then watch you conciously understand
it at points. We learn it young, but we don't understand it fully. It's
almost a wrote language. but, it can be understood. It can be concious,
cognitive process. You'll notice some people do conciously understand it.
(the following is bad example in a moral sense, but clearly understandable.
"her lips said no, but her eyes said yes.") --
15.)Eye contact--The ability to consistantly look in
another eyes during conersation, fliritng, or just plain existing, without
appearing to stare at another, or make another feel threatened.
16.)Empthay--The ability to understand another person's
emotional state. To almost feel the same state yourself, and act in an
appropriate manner, given the other's emotional state.(This can be positive,
too folsk.. Every-time we hear this word, we think somebody died. but in
reality, empathy is used just as much in flirting.)
On number 5, body language. It seems that body language is in and of
itself a subset of skills, which are more basic. Here seem to be the basics.
A.) Stance--Your posture, during social interaction.
This actually means a lot. It can affect your projection, it can affect
your openness. The best stance, for a romantic situation--Arms uncrossed,
chest out, stand as tall as you can, without straining. Shoulders widened.
Don't appear stiff, but rather, fluid. Kepp your toes at a 45 degree angle
towards each other. Hands may go into pants pockets.
B.) Smile--There are actually several different types of
smiles. the one best suited is the mid, teeth showing smile, showing the
upper teeth, and prt of the lower. A little less wide than the "Politician
Smile"(Best suited for courtship purposes. The politicians smile is the
best for business situations.)
C.) Plane of focus--Basically, look in any horizontal
plane. Avoid orthognal planes(straight up, straight down.) Generally, do
not look down by more than 15 degrees. The plane of focus is cultrally
dependant. If you go to asia, do not look in the horizontal plane, but
rather, look down 15 degrees.
D.) Eye contact--Never hold a gaze at anyone more than
2.5 seconds. If you are interested in them, a series of short looks,
lasting 1 second work the best. Slowly increase the time interval.
E.)Movement velocity--Don't move too quickly. If you've
ever worked with animals, you'll know this one very well. quick
movements(inclduing quickly looking away from someone) indicate nervousness.
If you're caught looking at someone, smile, and slowly turn your gaze. WE
all know the "Barney Fife" stereotype. The quick, jerky, unfluid movements
is characterisitc of nervousness, fear, etc... Simply slowing down movement
velocity helps a lot in control, clumsiness, etc...
F.)Vigilance--Hard to describe, but basically, looking
all over the place all the time. It indicates a near panic situation.
Basically, like you're trying to find the lion hunting you. It is best not
to appear vigilant, except in situations that warant it. I.e, a lion is
hunting you, You're wearing a big sign on your head that states,"White
Supremecy is the only way" while walking through down-town New York City.
You get the idea. Unless your own personal safety is really on the line,
vigilance seems improper.
Please, add more or explain how to learn or at least appear to learn some
of the above skills.
In article <32866bc1.0@robby.oit.umass.edu>,
peerbhai@asimov.oit.umass.edu (Imran Peerbhai) wrote:
Body language tends to be unconscious in the same sense that speaking a
language or driving a car is unconscious. That doesn't mean it can't be
learned.
Agreed. Occupy space and be relaxed.
I disagree with this; it can look awkward.
Better to hook thumbs on belt or pockets.
Depends on the style of courtship and what you are trying to communicate.
If you want to communicate safety and friendliness, then your description is
accurate. If you want to communicate sexual interest, then much less of a
smile is better--teeth not showing, preferably with the mouth asymmetrical.
I did an interesting experiment. I had to get my new ID. ID pictures
always come out terrible, so I decided to have fun with it. I did my
strongest normal-use leer, pure sexual interest. Every woman that I have
shown the picture to has said, "What a *nice* smile."
Agreed, with this caveat--do not break a look horizontally. Break it
vertically.
That's because the degree of dominance allowed to common people is
culturally dependant. Betcha a nickel that the leaders don't look down 15
degrees.
I disagree with this. Long looks provide a tension which is necessary.
There's a delicate balance.
Agreed.
Agreed, except that there's a different kind of vigilance which means
you're the lion. This is actually desirable.
> "ability to project a certain image" --- i.e. be a temporary fake, to
> dupe a fellow human into thinking we are something we are not.
> "ability to appear to belong to a certain social class" - more fakery.
> "ability to maintain prolonged speech" - artificial!
> The other entries all admit of a similar fundamental flaw - in trying to
> get the presumed 'social deficient' to adopt fakery skills that will
> make him/her appear to be 'social'. Let me turn this on its head: why
> cannot society accept me - if I choose not to talk - go to parties, or
> adopt a fake fashion to project some (culturally-ordained) 'acceptable
> image'?
> "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I think anything
> above and beyond this is artificial dross.
> f*ck the rest of society and their extro-worshipping fools, lackeys and
> stooges. (Including all corporations that help project and sustain these
> *images*).
> 'Pro-active?' What's that? <snip>
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Re: Characteristic of shys?
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:03:06 -0600
Message-ID: <pepke-0411961403060001@pepkemac.scri.fsu.edu>
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
> After talking with my brother, and with a lil self
> introspection(actually, a lot) I noticed that whenever I am on these chat
> programs ( where else would a shy guy be..sighs ) I notice that whatever
> happens, *I* end up being the one to carry the conversation by asking
> stuff and the other *simply* answereing or responding to me... This also
> happens on the few chats I ever have with ppl in real life... I think
> this is just another extension of my Net.love post a few days ago.
> So...the only conclusion I can take, which affects both mediums of
> communication, is that the way I express myself makes it happen. I mean,
> chat programs, they cant see me, or anything..how is it possible to occur
> the same way as in real life?!?
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu
From: umscott2@cc.umanitoba.ca (Bryan David Scott)
Subject: Re: The skills
Date: 4 Nov 1996 23:27:00 GMT
Message-ID: <55lu44$6jc@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Bry
From: peerbhai@asimov.oit.umass.edu (Imran Peerbhai)
Subject: Re: The skills
Date: 10 Nov 96 23:56:49 GMT
Message-ID: <32866bc1.0@robby.oit.umass.edu>
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
>Body Language is a subconscious function, so always trust your gut
>feeling.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Imran H Peerbhai |http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~peerbhai |
|peerbhai@student.umass.edu |2016 Washington, 6-2200 |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pepke@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Re: The skills
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:03:27 -0600
Message-ID: <pepke-1211961403270001@pepkemac.scri.fsu.edu>
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
> Body language, Body language, Body language... the unfortunate thing
> about Body Language is it tends to be an unconscious thing, you can't go
> "I'm going to project confidence now!"
> A.) Stance--Your posture, during social interaction. This actually means
> [...]
> Keep your toes at a 45 degree angle towards each other.
> Hands may go into pants pockets.
> B.) Smile--There are actually several different types of smiles. the one
> [...]
> C.) Plane of focus--Basically, look in any horizontal plane. Avoid
> [...]
> The plane of focus is cultrally dependant. If you go to asia, do not look
> in the horizontal plane, but rather, look down 15 degrees.
> D.) eye contact--Never hold a gaze at anyone more than 2.5 seconds. If [...]
> E.)Movement velocity--Don't move too quickly.
> F.)Vigilance--Hard to describe, but basically, looking all over the place
> all the time. It indicates a near panic situation.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pepke@scri.fsu.edu